-
A couple of handout I prepared for a student. Hope someone finds them of use
Basics of fretboard counterpoint.pdf
-
08-16-2023 12:50 PM
-
Rules of counterpoint for Bad People (and those who don’t give a Fux)
- First species (e.g. note on note)
- Look especially after the melody and bass (two part)
- Perfect consonances – fifths and octaves. Don’t use more than one of these in a row as it tends to make the melody and bass sound less independent.
- Imperfect consonances – thirds and sixths. You can use as many as you like, but too many in a row gets a bit boring.
- Dissonances – seconds and sevenths (and flat fifths). These are bit fiddly but for now let’s say we say we don’t more than one in a row (except for special cases.)
- Work in three parts max, except when you want to strum something
Hacks for sounding like you know what you are doing
1. Parallel motion in thirds and sixths
2. …Or keep one voice still while the other moves
3. …Or move the bass and melody in opposite directions (perhaps the hardest on guitar, but sounds great)
4. To keep the middle voices good, vary the types of chords you are making.
5. If the chord basses jump around you should be OK provided you observe tight voice leading.
6. Work in three parts max, except when you want to strum something
Types of chords
(Shorthand, full figures, modern term, description)
NOTHING - 5 3 – root position triads. These fellas like to jump around by leap.
6 - 6 3 – first inversion triads. These like to creep upwards and less frequently, downwards, often to a 6 4 3.
6/4 - 6 4 – second inversion triad - this fella has one purpose only, and that to set up a 5 4 on the same root.
4 - 5 4 – sus4 chord - this fella sets up a 5 3 on the same root. It’s a sus4 chord.
7 5 3 – root position 7th - these like to move in fourths like Autumn leaves.
We will talk about suspensions … later!
Fancy 6 chords
6 b5 - 6 b5 – first inversion 7th – this is a 6 3 on steroids but only creeps up.
6 4 3 - 6 4 3 – second inversion 7th - this likes to sit a step above a 5 3 chord. Doesn’t care what way it goes.
4 2 or 2 - 6 4 2 – third inversion 7th - this sounds amazing creeping down a step to a 6 3
These chords maybe also altered in various ways, but we’ll talk about that later. They are specified with a # or b sign normally, and sometimes a weird crossy thing or whatever. Depends.
-
When you say classical improvisation, are you making a distinction between improvising harmonized music vs improvising single voice?
More to come once I'm more clear on this point.
-
Very good Christian.
I've started on the book Twentieth Century Harmony by Vincent Persichette.
Such a great book. Am doing the exercises at the end of chapter 1. Lots of counterpoint implied.
First chapter covers consonant fourths and tritones and how each can sound more consonant or dissonnant depending on the surrounding harmony.
First exercise write a flute duo phrase with each interval. Right up my alley
-
I haven't looked into that book for about twenty years... I remember it being good and I think I got a lot out of it. Maybe I'll revisit at some point.
Originally Posted by Liarspoker
Very good Christian.
I've started on the book Twentieth Century Harmony by Vincent Persichette.
Such a great book. Am doing the exercises at the end of chapter 1. Lots of counterpoint implied.
First chapter covers consonant fourths and tritones and how each can sound more consonant or dissonnant depending on the surrounding harmony.
First exercise write a flute duo phrase with each interval. Right up my alley
-
Is that more as a textural distinction? You could have one voice expressing implied harmony/counterpoint (Ala the Bach violin partitas), or an aria style texture of melody on a bass, as opposed to something denser like a fugue or fughetta. Originally Posted by Tal_175
OTOH do you mean a soloist improvising over a continuo? As in two separate people perhaps? From a historical perspective I know VERY little about, but I understand that most soloists would greatly embellish a simple melody in performance. I'm not clear how much 'soloing on changes' there was (though there are certain pieces that sound that way.) It's not clear to me harmonies were understood that way in the C18 and prior.
I bet Rob MacKillop would know more...
From a modern perspective it would be much like soloing on changes as a jazz player, albeit with limitations and stylistic specifics if you wanted it to sound 'in the style.'
-
I mean it as a textural distinction. So from the modern perspective the distinction is soloing over changes vs improvising in chord melody style. I'm thinking about making a video to discuss textural differences between the classical solo guitar and jazz solo guitar. This is a subject that really interests me but I've never seen an in depth discussion about the arrangement techniques for solo guitar textures. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
-
I love this. If you don’t mind my asking a stupid question, how do you practice this? Like … what do you sit down and actually do?
-
Atm I just want the student to practice the stuff on the sheet. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
So all this preparation for the next step which is realising simple figures. Oviovulsy a lot of this 10ths material will already by familiar to guitarists who have spent some time with chords, and the cadences are basically a complicated way of looking at V-I’s (but they are very sylistic) so it’s a reframe of familiar material in a less familiar way.
The next lesson would introduce something called the rule of the octave and realising basic figured basses. But the main thing is get the student into a position where they can understand the primary sources.
this is the first partimento of Fenaroli.
The idea is you take this figured bass and realise into a simple piece of music. In practice all the chords here and triads and dominant sevenths (with a sus on cadences) but you have to be able to understand the intervallic langauge of figures and a contrapuntal/intervallic rather than harmonic/functional understanding of harmony is I think essential from day one to get into the mindset of C18 music if that makes any sense.
If you are able to read the figures it actually introduces this basic concepts in a short music piece. For instance you can see a cadenzia doppia at the end - which is in the sheet. It starts to teach some of the language of C18 music.Last edited by Christian Miller; 08-17-2023 at 01:06 PM.
-
Yeah awesome. I love this. I find when I play solo guitar, I tend toward more contrapuntal kind of things—spread triads, moving voices etc. Which I assume is the classical background coming through. I’ve just never really put the time into actually making it deliberate. So its just kind of haphazard now. But this looks awesome. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Atm I just want the student to practice the stuff on the sheet.
So all this preparation for the next step which is realising simple figures. Oviovulsy a lot of this 10ths material will already by familiar to guitarists who have spent some time with chords, and the cadences are basically a complicated way of looking at V-I’s (but they are very sylistic) so it’s a reframe of familiar material in a less familiar way.
The next lesson would introduce something called the rule of the octave and realising basic figured basses. But the main thing is get the student into a position where they can understand the primary sources.
this is the first partimento of Fenaroli.
The idea is you take this figured bass and realise into a simple piece of music. In practice all the chords here and triads and dominant sevenths (with a sus on cadences) but you have to be able to understand the intervallic langauge of figures and a contrapuntal/intervallic rather than harmonic/functional understanding of harmony is I think essential from day one to get into the mindset of C18 music if that makes any sense.
If you are able to read the figures it actually introduces this basic concepts in a short music piece. For instance you can see a cadenzia doppia at the end - which is in the sheet. It starts to teach some of the language of C18 music.
-
Cool! I’ll update this thread with documents as we go… Originally Posted by pamosmusic
It’s nice to go back to classical pieces and look at them through this lens.
-
Yes please do! Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Any pieces in particular you’ve found interesting?
(for what it’s worth, I’m mostly playing classical for teaching and the occasional background gig now. Had to relearn Capricho Arabe recently for a killer little high school sophomore, but that’s by far the hardest thing I’ve played since college. Good to know I could still pull it off though.)
-
tbh I would expect my classical guitar repertoire and chops would lag a very long way behind you… but I think the modern electric guitar is a different way into it. The aim is not to inflict this stuff on others so much as learn, really. But I look at pieces and think - ah yeah #4 3 going to a 6th chord and so on, and it’s nice to know that’s how the composer was thinking about harmony. You can certainly cannibalise and adapt stuff from guitar pieces to use for your own purposes. Understanding the harmony is only one piece of it - you have to have a repertoire of ways to realise those harmonies and embellish those melodic frameworks, and playing a lot of repertoire is going to help with that - but by engaging improvisationally with the material you develop a different relationship with the piece and I really enjoy that. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Honestly it teaches me a lot about jazz in a sideways way.
Guiliani Fughetta is basically like a partimento realisation - he was amazing at getting these things to sit on the guitar, and there’s so much elegant contrapuntal beauty going on without it ever being hard to play. I think it’s a good template for how one might go about improvising a simple fugue. Might do a break down at some point.
And I want to do a deep dive video on the two part inventions I’ve learned but there’s so much in that stuff and I doubt anyone would watch it haha.
-
I was never into the classical period stuff. I played what I had to play (etudes etc) but my recitals were like … baroque or twentieth century. Scarlatti, Brouwer and Tarrega for my junior recital. Bach, Villa-Lobos, and Andy York for senior.Guiliani Fughetta is basically like a partimento realisation - he was amazing at getting these things to sit on the guitar, and there’s so much elegant contrapuntal beauty going on without it ever being hard to play. I think it’s a good template for how one might go about improvising a simple fugue. Might do a break down at some point.
I didn’t really get the classical period dudes at the time. In my old age, I’ve gained more of an appreciation. Still don’t care for Sor, honestly, but Giuliani is kind of a cut above.
[Raises hand.]And I want to do a deep dive video on the two part inventions I’ve learned but there’s so much in that stuff and I doubt anyone would watch it haha.
(Don’t think I don’t know you’re fishing.)
-
Huh? Are you saying those are not multi-voiced? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Edit: and "classical improv" had me thinking of this
https://vmirror.imslp.org/files/imgl...0083-ortiz.pdf
-
Errr, no? Originally Posted by RJVB
-
"One voice implying counterpoint/harmony", that reads like rather explicitly the opposite of multi-voiced Originally Posted by Christian Miller
-
Well it’s not the opposite is it? The opposite would be true monophonic music like plainsong or ottoman music. And even then you can obviously recognise that plainsong is important in the evolution of polyphony and so on. And then there’s some very interesting issues around the subjective perception of monophonic music. I hear chord progressions and chords implied in Middle Eastern music quite often, for example. Descending melodic sequences are common and suggest fourthwise progressions to the western ear, and so on. Originally Posted by RJVB
"One voice implying counterpoint/harmony", that reads like rather explicitly the opposite of multi-voiced
Anyway I meant this sort of thing.
obviously the violin does not literally play multiple parts in this case (except for the final chord) but implies them within a single line. (With Bach we can assume he’s doing this on purpose, unlike in non-western music.)
The difference between this and true multi part music is somewhat porous.
-
I like looking at stuff like the cello suites from a transcriptions for guitar, so a lot of those lower voices are made more explicit—held out, occasionally repeated to emphasize, etc—but I always loved listening to Andy York’s versions with the down-tuned guitar playing the cello music note for note. Doesn’t have all those huge cello overtones and stuff but still cool.
-
It's the reason I asked, but if there is such a thing as the opposite of multi-voice it's probably "mono-voice" which in turn is suspiciously similar to "one voice" Originally Posted by Christian Miller
If you play the notes exactly as written then yes, but we both know that's (probably) not the intention. Playing guitar with a pick really isn't that different, in principle and IMHO.Anyway I meant this sort of thing.
obviously the violin does not literally play multiple parts in this case (except for the final chord) but implies them within a single line. (With Bach we can assume he’s doing this on purpose, unlike in non-western music.)
-
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Actually, I'm convinved the violin solo works at least are meant to be looked at only - the "autograph" is a work of (applied) art in itself that invites the be admired dreaming of how beautiful it could sound if we knew exactly how to play it Originally Posted by RJVB
-
This is weird.
Though admittedly I don’t have the chops to do much more than just look at my cello suites anymore.
-
I too no longer have the chops to do more than looking with the violin equivalent. Nor the instruments, even.
-
that is not how opposites work.It's the reason I asked, but if there is such a thing as the opposite of multi-voice it's probably "mono-voice" which in turn is suspiciously similar to "one voice"
The opposite of monophonic is not polyphonic any more than opposite of a single lane road is a six lane motorway.
people get hung up on the twangin’ don’t they? I think polyphony is as much in the fretting hand myself…If you play the notes exactly as written then yes, but we both know that's (probably) not the intention. Playing guitar with a pick really isn't that different, in principle and IMHO.
-
Reply With Quote
How is the Steve Howe 175?
Today, 05:54 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos