-
I love jazz and still want to develop my playing, certainly in improvisation, but I also am passionate about old school Flamenco. In both cases I am not interested particularly in solo guitar, more the group interaction (or jaleo :-) ).
I find I am not capable unless I schedule things, to cope with my essentially all or nothing approach to either. This too often means that I don't do one at all while I am studying the other. This can actually lose a year.
I am by the way, not talking of different styles within jazz, more completely different genres requiring different skill sets. I love the fact that with jazz I learn predominantly plectrum techniques and with flamenco, finger style. One is intellectual to some degree, the other passionate and controlled. The situation is further complicated when I start on a computer based composition project - then all playing is off.
I don't play for a living at all now, but I don't like stasis or losing skill. I look to improve.
One of the answers I am expecting is that you have to commit wholly and exclusively to a style to get anywhere in it. But my destination is not a big gig, it is expression of the music I want to produce as a player. But do we have to prioritise?
Any thoughts?
Thanks.
-
04-08-2020 01:30 PM
-
Originally Posted by Hugo Gainly
-
Honestly, I find it's almost impossible to excel at more than one demanding style.
Then again, I don't even excel at the one I'm trying in, so...
-
Hi, Hugo,
Great question. I play Classical and Jazz. I started playing R&B/Soul professionally in the 60's on guitar. I switched to Tenor Sax/Flute in the 70's playing/arranging in many working Jazz/Rock big bands, studied theory, arranging academically but continued playing EG. Then, began the serious study of Classical Guitar in '92. About 6 months ago, I brought my Gibson ES125 out of the closet and began exploring and rediscovering its sound and returning to my roots. Conceptually CG and JG are completely different instruments as I have stated many times. The only similarity, in my opinion, is they both have 6 strings. However, it is not impossible to live in both worlds if you have the TIME and EARS. However, playing as an aficionado with 2 hours or less a day to practice, as many on this Forum, I believe it can't be done to any high level of proficiency. However, if you ARE already proficient in one genre and are dedicated, it can be done dividing 4-5 hours a day minimum between genres--keeping both your Jazz and Flamenco chops--in your case. I have met Fareed Haque several times playing Jazz and Classical and he is a true hybrid playing CG/JG beautifully and effortlessly. But, he has been a 24/7 dedicated musician, teacher, performer his entire life--60 plus years or so. So, in your case, Hugo, Jazz and Flamenco, aside from technique, are much closer than Jazz/Classical. But, if you don't have the time, it's not a real goal. Stick to one instrument and style. I think you'll be much happier if you're reaching for the stars. Good playing . . . Marinero
-
Here's Fareed playing Villa Lobos, "Prelude." Enjoy. Marinero
Last edited by Marinero; 04-08-2020 at 09:28 PM. Reason: spelling
-
O.K . . . you twisted my arm . . . Marinero
-
Great question, with no clear answer. I go back and forth constantly. In jazz, it's just Django and Charlie. But there's some rock and blues too. And undoubtedly I don't spend the time on it all that many of you do. It's obvious that if you don't stick to one style, you won't "achieve." But you need to do what you enjoy and what your muse leads you to. Even my teacher, who is a gypsy jazz specialist, says he is constantly diverted to other styles.
-
It has been a problem for me for many years. You can play many styles (and instruments), even on a professional level, but you can really only excel in one. At some point you have to make a choice. And the difficulty for me was indeed, passion. When you get into a particular style -or even a particular guitar-, you want to play it all day. Can't put true passion into time constraints, or logic.
But on the other hand, whatever inspires you to play, I say go after it. Throw it in your musical melting pot, see what comes out..!
-
I love jazz and also love other American root music (but this is imho more or else work together)
But also I love baroque and renaissance lutes and play them a lot.. and this is quite a gap in almost everything... actually to be honest between renaissance and barique there is already a gap...
I should say I think I am not bad as a solo player on lute... with jazz the problem is taht I do not play a lot with others so I cannot really say if I am good or not...
I had (and still have) the same problem that you describe ..
I tried to choose and sometimes it seemed I chose but eventually I begin to miss the imnstrument and style of music.
I tried to schedule but it does not work for me
Jazz for me is really a creative territiry
But early music is much more complex in concern of form and contents - it tells me so much and I am so much related to teh culture it comes from.
Also I hate 'crossovers' - I am not purist - but I hate modern tendency to mix everything... to me the whole essence of the style is in its individuality, cultural indentity...
I have more or lesscombined these things eventually when I realized the idea which is important for me in the style - I do not know how to explain it but I got that I cannot mix the styles but I can more or less understand why i do this or that - what is behind it and these things may be more related to each other than the styles.
Because after all - it is all ME. This is what is important in art I believe.
One important note - I have other creative area where - If I may say so - I am most demanding to myself becasue this where I know I can do best...
Music is complimentary for me though as I sayd I am quite at hight level I think...
so in music if I do not succede in something I feel more or less relaxed about it. that makes things easier
-
I try to avoid playing in different styles.
happy to play in different genres.
-
Great to read the responses to date
and, as we could all predict, different sides of the argument are supported!
I was impressed with Fareed Haque. He seems to sit in both genres equally well and I would certainly look to play some of those chords! I also thought his pulgar passages in the Villa-Lobos were fantastic. His time in the woodshed/venue shows. It was good to see that he played an electric too, as I was about to refer to his acoustic guitar use. :-)
Some refer to excelling - I'm not sure I have that as a goal...actually I am, I haven't. I want to improve, which is a satisfying journey and not a destination, if it's making some original musical statements in playing over chords to tocando un poco Siguiriyas with a gypsy singer (though the latter is vanishingly unlikely in South London). I'm sure if my livelihood depended upon it I would be more sanguine about the decision.
Everyone made great points that I am thinking about but this points to something unifying.I have more or lesscombined these things eventually when I realized the idea which is important for me in the style - I do not know how to explain it but I got that I cannot mix the styles but I can more or less understand why i do this or that - what is behind it and these things may be more related to each other than the styles.
I think it's possible and probably desirable to do both, but there has to be some organisation at least to not lose skill and interest in 'the other style'. And, yeah, I didn't even think about another instrument!
Thanks.
-
I try to avoid playing in different styles.
happy to play in different genres.
-
Originally Posted by Hugo Gainly
That’s not quite what I meant, I do fingerpick from time to time and my technique, while far from as developed as my picking, is informed by the classical lessons I’ve had. Technique is technique...
what I mean is that while some here are quite purist - Jazz over here, say, bluegrass flatpicking over there, I would like to let everything bleed into everything else because that’s what my favourite musicians do.
for instance someone once complimented me by saying they would have thought I was a different guitarist listening to me play gypsy jazz (he’d only heard me play contemporary Sco style stuff before)
I hated this. I felt a deep sense of existential dread haha. I wanted to have one style and just do that in different contexts.
When the chips are down I can do the straightahead or swing guitar thing pretty convincingly, so people book me for that. but I am not a purist and I enjoy being in all sorts of environments and finding a way to make it work. I’m also totally happy playing parts etc. But the idea of improvising in this or that ‘style’ is horrific to me.
More horrible still is the idea that this or that guitar might have this or that style associated with it. YUCK!
and yet I think I do it quite intuitively. I do do, Frisell mode, Kreisberg mode, Django mode, bop mode and so on. I kind of can’t help myself.... So I reckon if I do Kreisberg and Frisell on a selmer macaferri that might stand in for a style haha? Hard to do! The guitar wants to do Django.
and then Sco picks up an acoustic and sounds like himself .... grrrr. That’s a real musician, not a music fan who plays.
-
I suppose a more constructive way to put it is that I don’t want to hear each instrument with preconception about what music it can do. And I don’t want to feel an obligation to overthink or overstyle my playing....
what comes out of the process may well sound like a style of one kind or another, but it’ll be more organic if that makes any sense.
-
You've now lost me. I think genre is pretty clear (Appalachian Death Dulcimer); style though, do you mean in the style of? (Frisell, Chuck Berry).
More horrible still is the idea that this or that guitar might have this or that style associated with it. YUCK!
But you've changed the debate, or haven't addressed my question. Do you want to play different genres and if so, how do you sustain it? You seem to be talking of different styles within jazz which I said wasn't the point.
-
Originally Posted by Hugo Gainly
Re Jazz: I don’t really do anything else tbh. TBH Jazz is a load of different styles, 100 years of music. You don’t get to just say ‘I’m a jazz player.’ Oh nonononono.
Anyhoo there’s a side of me that would like to get into Bluegrass or maybe Irish music, but I doubt that’s going to happen. If I don’t have kids maybe this would be ideal time haha.
i played the lute for a bit. That was fun. Quite easy once you got the thing in tune. It’s all tab.
I used to play rock and blues. I still love that music but really there’s an oversupply, so if you want to that stuff you need to be driving it. Every so often someone gives me a soul funk gig and then I have to learn to play the songs in three days. They don’t call again. Which makes me sad. But I’m probably shit at it.
so I suppose for me, I do one thing and that’s it ... really? ATM. But I play a few styles within jazz.
HOWEVER - I kind of don’t entirely always know what genre is in this context either; my main project, Balagan Cafe Band is a super eclectic chamber jazz project. So, we’ll go from Guillaume de Machaut and John Dowland to Algerian Cafe Music via Django, Systems Music, Free improv, and Folk Rock. But it’s all jazz. Check it out!
playing wise I go from rock to contemporary jazz to Middle Eastern via classical guitar and gypsy swing. No one really noticed haha. I was pretty proud of my playing on that one.
Live I just use a steel string flattop for everything, because otherwise I’d have to bring four or five guitars. It all sounds good to me, and helps unify the disparate elements into one sound world.
Even my Gypsy Swing Band into plays in odd times and covers the music of Eric Satie.
so dunno really... I play mostly or almost entirely jazz, but a lot of the jazz I play is quite broad and crossover-y. It’s not just bop and GASB on an L5 or whatever. I think it’s all going according to plan haha!
But very much not - OK today I do a classical gig, tomorrow I do a country gig. I know guys who do that. Not me. Or people who have mastered two or three styles in a very purist and authentic way.
I’m really not into trying to imitate other guitar players, but that seeps in round the corners naturally. I steal things here and there.Last edited by christianm77; 04-09-2020 at 09:04 AM.
-
Originally Posted by christianm77
What i am interested in most is modern imrpovizational music derived from jazz and traditional American music...
But with early music it does not work.
Playing Satie with Gypsy jazz band is absolutely fine I think... I would even say that even playing Schoenberg or Mahler would be fine too)))
It is very close aesthetically
But for example Mozart or Schubert most probably would turn our blatant in that arrangement...
-
Everything is fine if it isn’t shit
-
Originally Posted by christianm77
-
I see lots of successful musicians that play multiple instruments and as others have mentioned, play in more than one "genre". That said, most of my favorite musicians seem incapable of not sounding exactly like themselves.
I've taken a lighter approach in the past few years. My main instrument is upright bass, but I still play some guitar (and drums just for fun) and I can hack my way through a bluegrass gig if I need to. I'm a pretty hack level drummer but I absolutely think that playing drums has improved my bass playing a lot, maybe more than if I had spent that extra time playing bass. It's not always about more hours on your instrument.
Life is kinda too short to take this stuff too heavily. Play what brings you joy.
-
Maybe it's because I play by ear, I have played whatever music the bands have wanted their audiences to hear.
I have always played a wide range; all kinds of pop, rock, soul, R&B, blues, funk, jazz... heck, even a little C&W.
-
At some point you have to make a choice. And the difficulty for me was indeed, passion. When you get into a particular style -or even a particular guitar-, you want to play it all day. Can't put true passion into time constraints, or logic.
I don't think ....did I?....maybe I did. Start again...I was hoping for a clear method. The quote from Alter above actually sums up my dilemma and why I use the term 'passion'. I'm not talking about doing a function gig at a wedding and banging out pop, or blues or rock. I can probably do a reasonable impression of all of those because that's how I came up, like most of my generation. But put me in a shouty metal band and things would be very different. Exit stage right old man dragging borrowed unplayable pointy headstock guitar in shame.... I'd need to do some serious practice (but I wouldn't as I'm not interested in that stuff).
Of course as someone with a musical nature I can enjoy most music, but passion? I think the only thing to do is to be systematic about one's study; to allow a bit of over-extended study/woodshedding/listening but to stop when one's ability to play to one's (jeez, too many 'one's') satisfaction in the other genre observably diminishes. Pointing in one direction only is not me and at the same time I'm not concerned with 'achieving' or excelling though that's as valid an approach as anything. I just need to feed my demons.
Actually, to be blunt, I converted hook, line and sinker to flamenco about 5/6 years ago - I was unhappy at my development as a jazzer (not particularly as a 'jazz guitarist' (I'm of the Allan Holdsworth school of jazz guitarists, i.e. really a sax player)) and whether I was sufficiently committed. I'd decided I wouldn't ever be any good. So I concentrated on composition which I've always done. During the composition passion I stopped playing anything. The composition has temporarily stopped and the jazz guitar has come back again - at least I am studying stuff that I haven't up to now (diatonic sus chords across the 4 main scale types) but I heard a Bulerías that knocked me off my feet and now want to get back playing flamenco. I suppose I have time as I don't have goals. Maybe some discipline.
Thanks.
-
I wouldn’t go near flamenco much as I love to listen to it, because I know it has be done a certain way.
are certain other styles more forgiving or is it my ignorance? Maybe it’s the guitar thing.
i suppose I could write a flamenco influenced tune for instance, maybe on one of the compas, but so much of the language of that music is built around the guitar technique it seems a bad idea to try this without a command of those.
-
Originally Posted by christianm77
Styles like flamenco are interesting with its almost primeval rawness... mix of subtlety and almost savage simplicity... I feel particular culture behind it which is hard to obtain from outside...
Of course last 50 years brought lots of 'neo' everything into the world music.
Many people who love Piazzola are surprised to hear real tango...
Most 'neo' film style has conventional pop vibe that makes it 'international' but less authentic
European classical tradition has great advantage. It is music that is complex in contents, complexity and written tradition give more access to it via scholarship.
In a word it is extremely cultivated.
-
so much of the language of that music is built around the guitar technique
.
You're right, the discipline requirement is extremely firm, which permits a nice trajectory of study, and though new flamenco continues to develop, it's generally in the face of those who prefer the old styles. Oddly, I couldn't wait to get away from the dominant didactic view of jazz that the old styles had to be appreciated and almost venerated first before being ready to move onto more modern stuff. Conversely, with flamenco, I think the old stuff has the most value. I see it as being a social and a communal expression of its historical milieu. I would prefer to be a part of ensemble where the collective voice is far more important than solo endeavour. This same view was clear in one set of posts on the flamenco site I frequent and one notable and uber-talented solo performer, has seemingly retired hurt (from the forum) and despondent at the views expressed. Views which were immediately rowed back on of course, but a general opinion was clear.
I don't feel able to judge but Miles was given credit by the flamenco community for Sketches. But, it wasn't flamenco of course.
buying guitars
Yesterday, 11:48 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos