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Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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01-25-2018 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by sunnysideup
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Frank was bigger than jazz. Much of his recording and touring was to make money to finance his serious art. Listen to his full body of work and you can tell the difference, even though there are places where the line gets blurry. He paid the Mother's a salary out of his pocket to work on his music even when they weren't recording and touring, that's dedication to your art, and darn expensive.
He was not afraid to be a vulgar loud mouth fool in pursuit of artistic freedom, and freedom of speech. He was a crusader on the front lines in the battle against artistic censorship, because if corporate America had the freedom to make money any way it saw fit, he thought artists should be able to do the same without interference, feed their families too.
Here's some Frank recorded before 1970...what other "rock" musicians were doing this then? Anyone who knows Eric Dolphy's work, especially OUT TO LUNCH knows this tune is no joke, it's an honest tribute, and it's no small coincidence that Zappa used vibes/marimba in the Mothers.
Is it jazz enough?
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Like him, loathe him or love him...Zappa was such a true "character" and that to me seems missing these days in genuine form.
He surely was a truly great creative mind (one of many) from the San Berdoo/Inland Empire area...I'm sure his efforts blazed the way for many greats who followed.
Jazz itself was being blown up, stretched and taken to places during his career that would leave the form of music hardly recognizable. I think from the sidelines he was part of that though never really entrenched in the classic sense...there were plenty of others already doing that...for him, with him, oblivious to him....
So is the answer to the original question then is.... "N'Yes?" :-)
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The last vinyl record I bought... I listened to this a lot which I think for some, like me, would be what it takes to really appreciate it. Zappa's last album.
Zappa describes The Yellow Shark as one of the most fulfilling projects of his career
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Originally Posted by rfmando
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Originally Posted by fep
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Originally Posted by rahsaan
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Originally Posted by rfmando
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Originally Posted by NSJ
It seems like a lot of people are annoyed by 80's music so we must have been doing something right.
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I think Frank Zappa was a Frank Zappa
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Originally Posted by NSJ
Perhaps we can ultimately connect this internet meme culture and the 4chan world of trollery, but Zappa (like Mike Judge, Trey Parker and Matt Stone) I think had a deep sense of humanity and right and wrong.... South Park and B&B are all about nuance under the hood...
Reading Zappa, there was a real sense of outrage at problems in the world, a distaste for state violence, prejudice and hypocrisy.
At the same time, someone who was in sometimes politically to the left, sometimes to the right, but always worth listening to...
True some the humour hasn't aged well and there's is an intrinsic misogyny to the rock band/groupie culture Zappa. In a sense, he commented on what was happening anyway. In any case, some of the humour is in poor judgement and offensive on a human level... I doubt Dweezil will cover the Illinois Enema Bandit anytime soon...
But no reason to dismiss every joke he made. Sometimes he NAILED it.
That’s why I said I was pretty much drawn to a lot to his instrumental work from hot rats to most likely to the period of Babysnakes. As he entered the 80s, I lost interest but that’s not just because of him, mostly music sucked as we entered the gated reverb and Synclavier and DX7 World. He wasn’t unusual in that regard. Look at Joni Mitchell’s 1980s music compared to her amazing 1970s output.
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the Illinois Enema Bandit is dope blues song though. What's wrong with it?
And there you go, Dweezel, killing it!
Also, ''intrinsic misogyny to the rock band/groupie culture''... What does it mean?
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I stand corrected.
It's also an extended rape joke based on crimes that actually happened. YMMV.
Michael H. Kenyon - Wikipedia
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Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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Originally Posted by christianm77
But when you start thinking about it.... Made me pretty uncomfortable liking it once it had been pointed out to me.
Free speech doesn't mean things should go unchallenged, and just because I think FZ was one of the Good Guys and a musical genius doesn't mean I think everything he wrote is beyond reproach... But as I say YMMV....
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Ah.. Frank Zappa...big smile! I saw 25-30 shows from the early ones to the last ones. Every one great but "Shut up" was amazing. I brought half a dozen of my friends who were not necessarily Zappa fans but every one still talks about that show. I do wish he was still with us now.
thanks John
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Only Zappa plays Zappa for me ... pretty amazing though!
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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I guess Frank liked this Oliver Nelson tune enough to cover it. The guy had good taste in jazz, IMO.
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Originally Posted by kris
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As said above, Zappa was unique. He was not a jazz guitarist, but he played jazz fusion of the highest order. Several of his records--Grand Wazoo, Live at the Roxy, Overnight Sensation, One Size Fits All, are among the best fusion albums ever made, IMHO.
His anarchic streak and ironic wit and scatophilia have made it a challenge for mainstream listeners to appreciate him, but there's no doubt he was the real deal.
Who said Zappa can't play over chord changes? Listen to the albums listed above, also Hot Rats. The guy could play, but he wasn't coming from the Christian/Wes tradition. I don't know if he could play Giant Steps on request, but with his facile mind and talent I bet he could with a little woodshedding. He did prefer to play over straightforward vamps, as did Herbie Hancock, Miles and a lot of other jazzers, especially during the fusion period.
He knew chord changes in and out, and orchestrated his own work for big band and orchestra, despite being entirely self-taught. A true savant of the musical world.
Re' the Tedesco quote, remember Tedesco was payed to play crap like the Green Acres theme...not that I'm knocking him, he was a great guitarist. I have little doubt he could play Zappa but he would have to work at it like a Mother (pun intended), cause that s**t is hard. Looking at that picture I have to feel there is a lot of mutual admiration there.
And not to put too fine a point on it, but Frank was more financially successful than virtually all jazz guitarists of his generation, with the possible exception of Benson.
Last point--what's going on with the Zappa kids is very sad. I am highly sympathetic to Dweezil, especially as he played and recorded with his dad. Maybe Zappa didn't make the right preparations for what would happen to the music after Frank died--I suspect entrusting Gail with the legal authority was a mistake. But the crap going on now has nothing to do with the music Frank performed in his lifetime.
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Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
I would always rather judge a musician by the music they make than some inferred 'jazz credentials' - if that's burning GS, so be it, if not, I'm not going to be thinking about it.
OTOH Some 'jazz buffs' I've encountered actually seem to think that way, they want the jazz credentials... I think that odd... I mean Wayne Krantz can probably play the shit out of GS but I really don't see that as relevant to the music he is making now. Also, players can't always do the stuff they did 20 or 30 years ago....
FZ was not a ‘Jazz Guitarist’ because he did not phrase or swing like one... He was kind of his own thing, and his sense of time and phrasing is pretty much unique to him. This is not a cat who was going to construct flowing eighth note lines... That would have been boring and tropish I think, for his particular musical imagination.
Back in the day his music was classified as rock (albeit weird rock) and he played to rock audiences at rock venues (Miles would get into that too, later the fusion movement).... Nowadays, he'd be on the jazz circuit, because all instrumental Western non-classical music is apparently jazz.
I think FZ had an ambivalent relationship with jazz - loved Roland Kirk, Dolphy and other individual artists - profoundly antipathetic to the world of straightahead gigs and ii-V-I's. In his autobio he mentions having done some fake book gigs lol.Last edited by christianm77; 01-28-2018 at 09:11 AM.
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What genre is this music?
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Originally Posted by NSJ
I remember reading this too. No he WAS not a jazzer.
Live at the Fillmore East (I think it was called) was something I played when my parents were at work, good heavens it was nasty. And funny. It would not go over in these PC times.
I saw him live once. They played one blues tune. He played it very well, it was by far the most satisfying thing he played all night. I can't remember any other song they played, although Dinah Moe Humm was probably on the set list. Great lyrics on that one. Wow.
Elias Prinz -- young talent from Munich
Yesterday, 10:24 PM in The Players