Can the Grateful Dead be considered Jazz?

**joe2758** · 06-22-2016, 12:55 PM

I can't dig 'em. but who cares?

**Boston Joe** · 06-22-2016, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

i agree, I get how people might not like the dead, but this tune...its just perfect.

i always thought it should have been the closer on "beauty."

Ripple is one of those songs that sounds like it's been around for 400 years.

**Hep To The Jive** · 06-22-2016, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

Also, though I'm no big fan of theirs at all, and this song is not jazzy at all, it moves me, and that's all that really matters, ain't it?

Sorry, I thought maybe, just maybe I can find something to like here, but what is that? It's not jazz, it doesn't swing, no passion of any kind, it's not rock'n'roll either, absolutely gutless music! The best I can describe this song is 'Rolling Stones Light', and even that is a compliment! I guess it's summarize hippy movement quite right, though, I'll give it that.

Ok, sorry for the rant, I better hide now

**Boston Joe** · 06-22-2016, 02:34 PM

It's called "folk music," Hep.

**Hep To The Jive** · 06-22-2016, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

It's called "folk music," Hep.

Oh, ok, my bad. I thought Woody Guthrie was folk music. He had more guts though, and humor. IMO

**lammie200** · 06-22-2016, 02:47 PM

IMHO appreciating the Dead's music involves a certain level of meditation. Drugs, spastic dancing, and tie dye are all optional. It had a few influences, but their music really isn't worth classifying because it was much more their own brand. I like it, but I like a lot of things.

**Hep To The Jive** · 06-22-2016, 03:03 PM

Well, certain level of medication helps with all kinds of music.. But in GD case it just seems you need a lot of it!

**lammie200** · 06-22-2016, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

Well, certain level of medication helps with all kinds of music.. But in GD case it just seems you need a lot of it!

I said meditation. Medication is optional IMHO.

**Hep To The Jive** · 06-22-2016, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by lammie200

I said meditation. Medication is optional IMHO.

Ahh shoot, now I'm becoming dyslexic?? This Greatful Dead is messing me up, I'm outta here

**KirkP** · 06-22-2016, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

If so.. Why? If not.. Why not?

Bob - You keep posting these questions, but you rarely state your own views. What do you think? Is G.D. jazz? What do you like about them and what don't you like?

I consider G.D. electrified folk music with extended improvisation over simple changes. Extended improvisation doesn't make it jazz for me. The word jazz has so many meanings these days that I avoid using it.

G.D.'s extended improv wears on me pretty quickly as much of seems like pointless noodling. I've enjoyed some of their work, such as the classic American Beauty album. I think the band has had a positive influence on American folk and rock music. Despite my lukewarm assessment, the band (especially Jerry Garcia) has had some influence on me.

**Thumpalumpacus** · 06-22-2016, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

Sorry, I thought maybe, just maybe I can find something to like here, but what is that? It's not jazz, it doesn't swing, no passion of any kind, it's not rock'n'roll either, absolutely gutless music! The best I can describe this song is 'Rolling Stones Light', and even that is a compliment! I guess it's summarize hippy movement quite right, though, I'll give it that.

Ok, sorry for the rant, I better hide now

Horses for courses. What moves me about that song is the contrast between the clearly simple musical foundation against the lyrics, which speak of a personal journey that has a bit of relevance to me. And as I said in the post you quoted, it ain't jazzy. It's just a song I like.

Your mileage clearly varies, and that's all good.

Variety is the spice of life, etc etc.

ETA: But "Rolling Stones Light"? The Stones only wished they did something that down-home.

**Cunamara** · 06-23-2016, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

(I always wanted them to do a "great american songbook" tune. "I left my heart in San Francisco" seems made for them.)

I saw the Jerry Garcia Band in Minneapolis and they did "What a Wonderful World." About as well as you'd expect. Man, Melvin Seals the organist in JGB sounded like God Almighty himself. What an enormous sound. Weir plays "My Funny Valentine" at RatDog shows once in a while; I've not heard it.

Got on the bus in '77. IMHO the Dead became a rock band that used a jazz approach. All the criticism of them is correct at one time or another; all the praise is correct at one time or another. They could be excruciatingly horrible and they could be utterly transcendent... sometimes in the same song. But they were their own thing, not jazz. It was Grateful Dead music.

Some of the Dead's tunes would be readily suitable for jazz. Jerry expressed a wish to hear Tony Bennett sing "Stella Blue." A big band swing version of "Sugaree" could be great. "Eyes of the World" is an obvious one. I am working up an arrangement of "Shakedown Street" for my quintet. "Ship of Fools" could work for a jazz ballad. But a lot of their tunes wouldn't work as well without the lyrics. I would love to hear a gospel choir do "Attics Of My Life."

Hmm. This is about the niftiest rendition I've heard (but it's not jazz and so effin' what):

I keep hoping to be able to bring some Bob Weir approach to my comping in jazz. Jerry's style is really pretty straightforward, but Weir is snaky as hell. He has an ability to imply far more motion than he is actually playing.

**lammie200** · 06-23-2016, 02:26 PM

Off topic. I know. 2016 SF debutante ball. Probably not a very diverse crowd. One of Bob Weir's daughters is on the left.

**Thumpalumpacus** · 06-23-2016, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by Cunamara

I saw the Jerry Garcia Band in Minneapolis and they did "What a Wonderful World." About as well as you'd expect. Man, Melvin Seals the organist in JGB sounded like God Almighty himself. What an enormous sound. Weir plays "My Funny Valentine" at RatDog shows once in a while; I've not heard it.

Got on the bus in '77. IMHO the Dead became a rock band that used a jazz approach. All the criticism of them is correct at one time or another; all the praise is correct at one time or another. They could be excruciatingly horrible and they could be utterly transcendent... sometimes in the same song. But they were their own thing, not jazz. It was Grateful Dead music.

Some of the Dead's tunes would be readily suitable for jazz. Jerry expressed a wish to hear Tony Bennett sing "Stella Blue." A big band swing version of "Sugaree" could be great. "Eyes of the World" is an obvious one. I am working up an arrangement of "Shakedown Street" for my quintet. "Ship of Fools" could work for a jazz ballad. But a lot of their tunes wouldn't work as well without the lyrics. I would love to hear a gospel choir do "Attics Of My Life."

Hmm. This is about the niftiest rendition I've heard (but it's not jazz and so effin' what):

I keep hoping to be able to bring some Bob Weir approach to my comping in jazz. Jerry's style is really pretty straightforward, but Weir is snaky as hell. He has an ability to imply far more motion than he is actually playing.

Weir's playing on "Estimated Prophet" is killer, he makes seven groove.

**Cunamara** · 06-23-2016, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

Weir's playing on "Estimated Prophet" is killer, he makes seven groove.

Oh yeah. Does it again in "Lazy Lightnin'." They had stuff in 5, stuff in 11. He's got a facility at putting things on the off beats ("Shakedown Street," "Tennessee Jed") that I find very interesting.

**Thumpalumpacus** · 06-24-2016, 04:04 AM

Never heard that before (Lazy Lightning), digging it. Thanks!

**Boston Joe** · 06-24-2016, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Cunamara

They could be excruciatingly horrible and they could be utterly transcendent... sometimes in the same song. But they were their own thing, not jazz. It was Grateful Dead music.

As the saying goes, "They're not the best at what they do, but they're the only ones who do it."

**ronjazz** · 06-24-2016, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by OldGuitarPlayer

I guess if you're a hippy stoned on LSD and think that "jazz" is the sound of a band tuning up and then jamming on the I (one) chord for 40 mins...

I don't recall them tuning up...

**Drumbler** · 06-27-2016, 07:35 PM

No.

Because.

**Hep To The Jive** · 06-27-2016, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by Drumbler

No.

Because.

The best answer to the OP question!

**snailspace** · 06-29-2016, 10:33 PM

Does it matter?

**Boston Joe** · 06-30-2016, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by snailspace

Does it matter?

In the grand scheme of things? No. As a topic of discussion to try to get to the essence of what makes jazz jazz? Maybe.

**snailspace** · 06-30-2016, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

In the grand scheme of things? No. As a topic of discussion to try to get to the essence of what makes jazz jazz? Maybe.

Sure, but "What Is Jazz?" threads can be found all over this forum, and few people seem to have anything other than a high opinion of their own opinion.

Can the Grateful Dead be considered jazz? Yes -- by people who want to consider it to be jazz.

**NSJ** · 06-30-2016, 10:39 AM

This question is moot. Duke Ellington settle this many decades ago by talking about two kinds of mistresses and only two kinds of mistresses.

**Boston Joe** · 06-30-2016, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by snailspace

Sure, but "What Is Jazz?" threads can be found all over this forum, and few people seem to have anything other than a high opinion of their own opinion.

Can the Grateful Dead be considered jazz? Yes -- by people who want to consider it to be jazz.

Well, maybe an edge case can shed some light. I dunno. It's a web forum, not a scholarly journal. People talk about whatever happens to catch their fancy at any given time.