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now come on guys shred isnt music
ITS F**KIN AWESOME!
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07-28-2008 11:38 AM
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alright missmisstreater, reccomend me some shred...because i don't think i've been hearing the right stuff. i'd describe it as F---ing something, but not "awesome."
do the dixie dregs count? i've always kinda liked that stuff.
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ok...errrr..
shred is an extreme
take any genre to virtuoso levels and it becomes shred, (sometimes taking on a new name aswel)
so jazz to shred becomes more fusion, gambale, holdsworth
the epitome is bret garsed imo
the theres the rock shreders
now any tuition book will tell you guitar players add fast licks to solos coz theyre exciting... so there are two types of rock shreder
ones that play songs with fast solos
paul gilbert - mrbig era
nuno bettencourt - extreme (check pornograffiti)
then ones that just shred shred shred
Ron jarzombek - i highly recommend spastic inks "ink compatible" as these time sig changes are off the wall
then theres those amazing bands that fuse it all together
dream theater!
but yeah, anything steve morse plays has a shreddy edge, his alternate picking is awesome, so the dregs definitely have that edge
oh then theres the more unacceptable neoclassical style but i like some of it
cacophony
malmsteen (ok thats not too good)
but i do recommend jason beckers album perpetual burn
then theres the other players
rusty cooley (check outworld)
then again mr. beaumont if you dont like distortion alot of it will be lost on purists...i appreciate music AND techniques
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
To Mr. B. If you want to listen to some genuinely musical shred, then check out Steve Vai's "For the Love of God". Very melodic and musical and then of course he builds it up to an all-out, eight finger tapping, shred-fest. That kind thing still isn't my bag a' chips but I can definitely appreciate it more than some of the other shred.
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cant agree there, as expressive as vai is, when it really comes down to it most of his music is him widdling over a backing.... i mean i own all of vais cds and can play alot of his stuff... but then it dawned on me....its nt that impressive...
basicly when i discovered dream theater i saw steve for what he is
dream theater is 4 virtuoso musicians with interweiving complexities
vais just a great guitarist with a backing band (noit that his live bands arent phenominal) vais one to watch not listen to
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I'm with you on Dream Theater. No offense, but I really don't like the music that much, but damn. That's about the only word to describe Dream Theater. "Damn". With a capital "D". As far as all the progressive rock shredders go, John Petrucci is head and shoulders above anyone. The keyboard player and bassist follow his solos note for note. Unbelievable stuff. On top of those three being unbelievable, in my opinion the drummer is the most talented of the three (although there's a certain point that they've reached where they're all so ridiculous that it doesn't really matter). I mean the way the drummer plays ridiculously complicated beats over songs that change time signature every few measures. Can't argue with you on that my man. I may not like their music, but those guys are talented.
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lol hell yeah
check out blotted science and spastic ink if you want real complexity! notes will be whizzing by in all manner of odd time sigs like 23/16
thats insane
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Originally Posted by MissMisstreater
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Haha. I don't know if I'd go quite that far. The fan on stage (to cool him off? or to make sure his hair is flowing behind him properly?) and the slinging the guitar around is a little much for my taste, but he's a good musician. I'm perfectly happy to watch a video of Joe Pass sitting on a stool alone in the middle of a stage and playing to his heart's content so the whole operatic "rockin' out" part of rock music has never really appealed to me. Even when I was really into the rock it was Grateful Dead and the Allman Bros. who would just get up there and play their music without worrying about what they looked like.
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I'm guessing that in 20 years Steve Vai and the rest of the shredders will be historical curiosities while Joe Pass' influence will remain intact.
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nah. who does joe pass influence? jazz folks. not a big portion of the population.
who does steve vai influence? shred folks. not a big portion of the population.
as long as these genres of music stay alive, both of these players will remain viable...but don't kid yourself into thinking the influence of joe pass is any larger or more lasting than vai--i'd say 7 out of 10 people on the street (maybe 8 or 9) don't even know who joe pass is.
JMHO, but sad but true, if ya ask me.
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Paganini on Violin. Now that's some serious shred
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Paganini on Violin. Now that's some serious shred
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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steve vai is definitely bigger, 100% it took me LONG time to discover joe since steves music is so readily avalible, the guy in my local classical/jazz store had no idea who joe was, and iv STILL never met anyone who knows who joe is without me having to show them, which is a shame, joe is by far my fav jazz guitarist EVER! hes so inspirational
@ john, exactly! paganini started it all i think, i mean whats so different between paganini, charlie parker, shawn lane and guthrie govan...i mean theyre all virtuosos what makes the guitarists so faux pas....y do people turn their noses up at shreders? all inspirational guys
have you all listened to jimmy brunos album solo? i mean thats shred!!! it blew my head off, but just coz there is no distorion
i think ur all falling into the category of moldy figs.....
i always thought that jazz fans were the most open minded, we prideo ourselves on appreciating ambiguous harmonies and experimental soloing styles, y do we turn our noses up at people who practice alot? are you gonna get to a point where you can say, oh no, cant practice anymore...il get TOO goodLast edited by MissMisstreater; 07-28-2008 at 08:27 PM. Reason: unfinished
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Originally Posted by MissMisstreater
First off... I really don't think Steve Vai is as well known as you think. We all assume that everyone knows who Joe Pass is just because we worship him. You're sort of doing the same thing with Steve Vai (not to say you worship him, but I'm just saying you love that style of music). I would say 9 out of ten people off the street don't know who Joe Pass and I'd say the same for Steve Vai. Many (perhaps not even most) experienced and/or serious guitarists know who Steve Vai is, but we shouldn't forget that, believe it or not, we are in the minority. Most guitarists are just weekend players who pick up the instrument when they have time. Some are good, but most don't study the instrument in depth and don't know who a lot of these non-mainstream guitarists are.
Also, my guitar teacher gave me Paganini's "Rain" once. Wow. Craziness. A lot of the time we forget how influential classical music was to a lot of early jazz musicians, particularly in regards to technique. Charlie Parker and John Coltrane spent loads of time learning Bach pieces. I would say that they can play fairly fast. haha. Also one thing that a lot of people forget is that most of these classical composers didn't "compose" these pieces. They improvised them and then decided they liked them enough to write them down as they remembered them. How's that for impressive?
As for that third paragraph there... This is actually a surprisingly open-minded community of musicians. Yes, I'm sorry, there are many, many stodgy overly traditional jazz musicians, but that's the way it is. I have a ton of friends who I play rock music with. We're talking Blues-Rock and Grateful Dead or Allman Brothers stuff. As far as rock goes, that's pretty jazzy. Anyway, these friends say that "all jazz sounds like elevator music", they pretend to fall asleep whenever I'm listening to jazz music, and they give me weird looks when I play a jazzier passage or chord voicing in a rock tune. Nothing against them. That's just the way it is. So as for your "moldy fig" comment... that's a double edged sword. In every genre you'll find tons of musicians who really experiment and are totally open to crossing over into other styles and you'll find some that absolutely won't even consider it.
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i agree with all of that except the underestimation of steves influence on the world of guitar...hes been featured in crapy publications such as total guitar right up to the best like guitar techniques numerous times, iv seen joe i GT twice....then theres the ibanez jem....dont get me started on that pretentious shreder tool...hes an overrated guitar icon....
but no, i dont like steve...i like watching him as he always has a good backingband the highlight being the breed (tony macalpine, billy sheehan, virgil donati, dave weiner) im not big on his music at all
i pride myself on being inspred by anything and everything, as mick thomson said "set ur standards up here (raises hand above head) as you can always play down here (lowers hand to knees)" very wise words from the man that got me into shred
im saying we should all be shreders, what i am saying is that from my experience people who cant run up and down the fretboard condem shred untill their fingers learn to move faster....
define shred... to me its mastery of your instrument, virtuoso and showing it.. or virtuoshow
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Originally Posted by MissMisstreater
I think that's where a lot of the jazz guys lose the shred thing...
I define shred as "mastery of one aspect of your instrument, virtuoso and flaunting it."
haha... now I'm just twisting your words. I know that not all shredders are arrogant jerks (even though most have earned the right to be) and all shredders are extremely talented. I do think that we've at least now come to the root of the problem. Exactly what we thought it was. Interpretation. We're back where we started. haha.
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lol, surely playing fast is their way of expressing themselves...i mean if im feeling grumpy i find nothing more invigorationg than running around my neck mixing up wholetone and augmented scales.... to me the #5 releases that frustration....
when im feeling happy ill run through a slow ballad and get REALLY ott on phrasing and all the nuances that only us guitarists have...
its interesting that only one jazzer has come up in this...ol joe pass who is renound for a series of albums called virtuoso.... where he has a
"mastery of one aspect of your instrument, virtuoso and flaunting it."
yet noone bats an eyelid, i find joes work more exciting that say wes montgomery. its a thrill thing you dont ride a slow rollercoster...or dream of the new ferrari prius... speed is exciting
to a point of course...some people take it too far...but i dont think the artists iv mentioned cross that line
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Originally Posted by MissMisstreater
Haha... nice. You got me. To be honest, I really admire Joe Pass for all the struggles he overcame and for the fact that he's a ridiculously good player, but he's not really someone I listen to for pure enjoyment. That is a good point, though. What it comes down to is that rock guys love Steve Vai. He shreds and shows everyone up and they love it, but Joe Pass just doesn't have that kick. Jazz guys love Joe Pass because he shreds and shows everyone up and they love it, but Steve Vai is too square, to showy. aaaaaand we're back. Right back where we started. Beauty (and shred) is in the ear of the beholder.
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You mention distortion as the thing that is keeping Jimmy Bruno from becoming a certified shredder. So where does John McLaughlin, Early Larry Coryell, Al Dimeola , Bill Connors (RTF b4 Al D) fit in on your list?
Have you listened to Birds of Fire? or other early Mahavisnu Orchestra? Larry's early Spaces album or Chick Correa's albums from the same period?
If by Moldy figs you mean it as OLD, then perhaps you should listen to these pioneers of distorted guitar jazz or jazz/rock SHRED from the late 60s ans 70's. (my era)
(Some modern day shredders with proecessed guitar sounds, Scofield and Stern. and let's not forget Warren Haynes for the Rock catagory!)
Also missing from your list of rock or Prog rock shredders are Frank Zapppa and Robert Fripp. Frank was so well 'fused' (as in fusion) that the real book even has some of his compositions in it!
One thing I would like to point out though is, mastery does not always equate to speed. nothing is more boring than 128th notes in a ballad. (and belive me I just as guilty of doing that as anyone else.) speed has it's place , and thats usually in tunes that have tempos in excess of 150bpm
Every musician should set goals for themselves so that they contiunally grow. I think you should also listen to what has gone on in the past and keep your ears open to what's happening NOW.
Just so you know, when I hear these guys you mention (Steve, Joe , etc, btw, you forgot Jennifer Batten) they amaze me. And I'm gladd to see that all the pioneering guitarists form Karl Kress to Django (now here's a shredder for you!) to Charlie Christian, Wes, etc,etc have all laid some heavy duty ground work so that all these 'young' upstarts can keep the tradtion alive and carry the torch to the next level.Last edited by JohnW400; 07-28-2008 at 10:40 PM.
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yes, i love mahavishnu orchestra, i havnt heard larrys stuff, but i am fond of chick correas electric band....very sinful of me to forget these guys it brings to mind a life changing album
friday night in san franscisco (i know its a different genre)
but yeah, the mahavishnu orchestra dvd is one of the favs in my collection
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Originally Posted by JohnW400
IMO if the idea of shed is to show-off technique and mastery of the "fingerboard" (as opposed to music) then it is an unfortunate evolution of the jazz languge that somehow has more to do with ego than art. But I don't like the speed thing anymore so that really shapes my opinion.
I've already said too much to express a simple idea... OMG I thnk I must be shredding.
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Originally Posted by Jazzaluk
A new Chords tool
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