Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Posts 1 to 32 of 32
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    Our standard for Jul 2019 will be How Deep Is the Ocean? (Irving Berlin, 1932).

    Background:
    Jazz Standards Songs and Instrumentals (How Deep Is the Ocean? (How High Is the Sky?))

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    LOL first time I have submitted BEFORE the month in question!


  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    No problem, I've done

    How Deep Is the Ocean?
    I Cover the Waterfront
    Come Rain or Come Shine
    There Is No Greater Love
    You Don't Know What Love Is
    But Not for Me

    So...


  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    This one's going down like a lead balloon :-)

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    The most prevalent version is Miles Davis and he plays some sort of contrafact. The tune is deserted, presumably because he thinks it's boring or something! I think I'll try it too


  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    This one's going down like a lead balloon :-)
    Let's see if I can sink it then. Lotta work to be done here, but first take on a song I just learned yesterday. Means there's room for polish over the next couple weeks.



    Edit: I love how when you post something on Soundcloud, some random account connected to this "WASP records" likes and follows you.

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    That made me smile and tap my foot. I liked the laid-back bluesy feel to it, quite interesting. Actually, I think the chords of this tune are deceptive, it's not as simple as it looks. But I could hear where you were coming from on it.

    Re. Soundcloud, it can get a little strange. The message icons top right usually contain all kinds of things, usually saying how WONDERFUL you are and wanting you to join this or that and be your FRIEND, and etc etc. Personally I ignore them :-)
    Last edited by ragman1; 07-12-2019 at 07:38 AM.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    Thanks. I'm working more on blues as I decided I need to (re)learn the blues in a jazz sense from the Led Zeppelin/SRV stuff I learned as a kid.

    I haven't seen this discussed in the few monthly songs I've participated in, but I'd like to see some discussion on how people approach the song. It would certainly help someone like me learning the songs to see how other people view it.

    For me, I generally thought of it around the Eb key center, but Cm and Gm in the A section...both modes of Eb I guess. The B section....I'm not sure yet, but an Eb Dorian(C major) works to cover the first 4 bars, but the second 4 bars starting with the Cm7b5 causes me problems.

    The C section? The melody seems to me to suggest an Eb mixolydian so I noodled on that, but the last 4 bars are a standard ending that I'm coming to realize is done in a lot of jazz tunes, so I just played something I've internalized by learning some Herb Ellis.

    Edit: added the chord sheet that I'm using for the song. I'm sure there's multiple different ones out there, but this is one I picked up from searching around.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    Bahzo,

    I have to make this post short to meet my cap. The more I transcribe and ear train, the more I find out about great players--they use the blues scale and ornament it with notes that outline the changes. I think Fareed Haque said it even better on his livestream:



    I forgot where he says it, but it's worth watching the whole thing.

    Listen to Ben Webster solo, when I think of "How Deep is the Ocean?" I think of Ben Webster:



    Beautiful solo, and he ain't using anything incredibly complex. It's HOW he is using the notes, not the notes themselves--you know?

    Good stuff Bah, you're in good company!
    Last edited by Irez87; 07-12-2019 at 01:56 AM.

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    Hi, Bahnzo -

    First, I think the chords in your pdf aren't quite right in the last 4 bars. You've got EbM7/Ab7 - Gm7/C7 - Fm7/Bb7 - EbM7. That Ab7 doesn't quite work, should be a G7. Some versions have Bo (which is a G7b9 in disguise) which is very good before a Cm7 but not so good before Gm7/C7 or just C7.

    These are the chords as I know them. There are two versions, but both work. The first one's EbM7/G7 - Cm7/F7 - Fm7/Bb7 - Eb6/G7 - (Cm). That's a t/around if the tune continues.

    The other one's EbM7/G7 - C7 - Fm7/Bb7 - Eb6/G7 - (Cm). I've put C7 for the whole bar but Gm7/C7 is okay too.

    Have a listen. Your one's first, followed by the next two.


  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Your other thing was the Cm7b5. There are lots of ways to do it but here are three.

    1) Treat the Cm7b5 as an Ebm and the F7 as an F7b9:

    Eb7 - Ab7 - Ebm - Ao - Fm - G7alt (Abm6)


    2) Treat the Eb7 as Bbm, the Ab7 as an Ab13, and the Fm7 as an AbM7 (it works):

    Bbm blues - Fm blues - Ebm - AbM7 - Abm6


    3) Start with Eb7 then go to Ebm (usual blues trick), use Db maj over the Cm7b5, and F mel over the t/around:

    Eb7 - Ebm - Db maj - Fm6 - F mel m


  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    As regards people discussing how they do it, I brought up that idea some time ago on another thread, maybe last year. It fell flat, completely, don't know why exactly. But things may have changed now, you never know

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    I did mention I looked at numerous different lead sheets for the song. At some point I had to take one and go with it. I think the one I posted, is from learnjazzstandards.com or something like that. I do have one that looks like it's from one of the Real Book editions, but then again, I've always been told those are arbitrary as well. Maybe another thing that would add some value to this monthly song thing....a lead sheet we can agree on? Also, maybe I should just use the Real Book version as it's the one most people would agree on?

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Your other thing was the Cm7b5. There are lots of ways to do it but here are three.

    1) Treat the Cm7b5 as an Ebm and the F7 as an F7b9:

    Eb7 - Ab7 - Ebm - Ao - Fm - G7alt (Abm6)


    2) Treat the Eb7 as Bbm, the Ab7 as an Ab13, and the Fm7 as an AbM7 (it works):

    Bbm blues - Fm blues - Ebm - AbM7 - Abm6


    3) Start with Eb7 then go to Ebm (usual blues trick), use Db maj over the Cm7b5, and F mel over the t/around:

    Eb7 - Ebm - Db maj - Fm6 - F mel m
    Thanks, lots to digest there. I need to sit down and listen to the chords more and try to "hear better" I think.

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    Finally, a good version I found while searching. There's not a lot of versions of this song that aren't Chet Baker or Joe Pass playing a solo version. I was kind of surprised I didn't find a Wes or Kenny or the like having a take on this song.


  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnzo View Post
    I did mention I looked at numerous different lead sheets for the song. At some point I had to take one and go with it. I think the one I posted, is from learnjazzstandards.com or something like that. I do have one that looks like it's from one of the Real Book editions, but then again, I've always been told those are arbitrary as well. Maybe another thing that would add some value to this monthly song thing....a lead sheet we can agree on? Also, maybe I should just use the Real Book version as it's the one most people would agree on?
    Oh, I know, me too. But this is the world of jazz. Don't look for logic. One moment there's a standard version, next moment there isn't. Numerous versions abound. There was a whole thread once on whether the first chord of 'Stella By Starlight' was Em7b5 (which most people use) because it 'wasn't the original chord' or something.

    I've seen the version you posted. I've got two versions of How Deep, one from the Real Book and the other from the 557 book. The 557 book lists alternate versions itself. Then there's the Vanilla book's version (quite unlike any of the others). Then there are different versions on the YouTube transcription vids...

    I gave up a long time ago and just go by what I think sounds right. The reason I didn't go for the Ab7 is because it doesn't sound right, and for that reason only. The melody at that point has a G in it. That's like playing F# over G7, which sucks. Except there was also a thread about why playing the nat 7 note instead of b7 over a dominant (F# over G7) was absolutely permissible in the world of bebop, etc etc, Except it's not a bebop tune. Except it's often played as a bebop tune... Don't look for logic.

    You may say it doesn't matter, it's just one chord, the melody skates by it once at the beginning, who cares? Absolutely right :-)

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    The “Anthologie” has a nice harmonization:

    But as I’ve worked on it I keep tweaking. Here’s my most recent iteration:

    But I mess around with the changes each time I play it, inverting minor7b5s into minor6th or 9th chords, or substituting dim7s.
    It can also sound nice to strip out the iim7b5 chords and go straight to the V7. What a great tune!

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Hi, Bahnzo -
    First, I think the chords in your pdf aren't quite right in the last 4 bars. You've got EbM7/Ab7 - Gm7/C7 - Fm7/Bb7 - EbM7. That Ab7 doesn't quite work, should be a G7.
    I think that Ab7 is fine for soloing, but on the head the Gb will clash with the melody notes (G & F). Abmaj7 would eliminate the clash.
    Last edited by KirkP; 07-15-2019 at 04:22 PM.

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP View Post
    The “Anthologie” has a nice harmonization:
    What is the top chart? I recognize the other as Ireal Pro, but I don't think I've see a chart in a style like the first one.

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnzo View Post
    What is the top chart? I recognize the other as Ireal Pro, but I don't think I've see a chart in a style like the first one.
    Search for:
    “anthologie des grilles de jazz”
    It’s a great reference for classic changes without all the subs found in many fake books.

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnzo View Post
    Maybe another thing that would add some value to this monthly song thing....a lead sheet we can agree on? Also, maybe I should just use the Real Book version as it's the one most people would agree on?
    Much of the pleasure and learning for me is in exploring the harmonic possibilities. I’d hate to lock in on any edition of the Real Book. That might be necessary for an amateur jam, but not here.
    :-)

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnzo View Post
    What is the top chart? I recognize the other as Ireal Pro, but I don't think I've see a chart in a style like the first one.
    It's similar to the Vanilla Book version.

    HOW DEEP IS THE OCEAN

    Key of Eb (Cm) 4/4


    [ Cm | Cm maj7 | Cm7 | Cm6 D7 |

    | Gm | D7 | Gm | Bb7 |

    | Eb | Eb7 | Ab7 | Ab7 |

    | F7 | F7 | Bb7 | Bb7 G7 |

    || Cm | Cm maj7 | Cm7 | Cm6 D7 |

    | Gm | D7 | Gm | Bb7 |

    | Eb | Gm7b5 C7 | Fm | Abm6 |

    | Eb | F7 | Bb7 | Eb |



    Index

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    I don't think it's worth sweating the small stuff and getting hung up up on one chord.

    That end line is very simple: Eb - F7 - Bb7 - Eb. Then it can become Eb/G7 - Cm/F7 - Fm/Bb7 - Eb, and so on. No probs really.

    I rejected the Ab7 is because it doesn't fit the melody, which is obvious really. The chords have got to fit the melody!

  25. #24

    User Info Menu

    Here’s a rough solo version, trying to go chartless without a backing track. A few neurons misfired along the way. I’d like to develop a stronger bass line.

  26. #25

    User Info Menu

    You don't seem to be really playing the bass notes much although it looks as though you're fingering them. Nice rhythm, though :-)

  27. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP View Post
    Here’s a rough solo version, trying to go chartless without a backing track. A few neurons misfired along the way. I’d like to develop a stronger bass line.
    Very cool, Kirk.

  28. #27

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP View Post
    Here’s a rough solo version, trying to go chartless without a backing track. A few neurons misfired along the way. I’d like to develop a stronger bass line.
    I like how you incorporated melody, full harmony, partial harmony, and some bass--all while keeping a forward moving PULSE.

    Thats HARD!

    Andy Brown often talks about making sure that the groove is present when he plays solo guitar, that's what you are doing here.

    I have a lot to learn

  29. #28

    User Info Menu

    There are tons of Andy Brown vids about, whole concerts. I like Andy Brown.

    But I can't find a 'How Deep' version... shame, it would be interesting.

  30. #29

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    There are tons of Andy Brown vids about, whole concerts. I like Andy Brown.

    But I can't find a 'How Deep' version... shame, it would be interesting.
    I have 2 of Andy’s albums and it’s not on those either.

    I have been trying to play more solo fingerstyle stuff recently after getting Andy’s masterclass videos on solo guitar.

    I would quite like to do a solo version of this tune if I can manage it!

  31. #30

    User Info Menu

    Oh, that stuff drives me mad! But I'm sure you'll do it proud :-)

  32. #31

    User Info Menu

    Just coming in under the wire. I played with the song a little more when I had time. This is the melody + 1 chorus solo. I heard a version with a Rhodes piano and I thought that was interesting. (Edit: I really don't like how Soundcloud increases the loudness of my tracks. I even try to mix them a little soft, and they still come out sounding harsh IMO)


  33. #32

    User Info Menu

    Check out Vic Juris on his CD "Free Admission" (2012) he seriously beats it down... (Guitar Trio)

    --- The ultimate answer to almost all guitar questions: "Practice more!" ---