December 2016 - I Can't Get Started

**M-ster** · 11-29-2016, 11:23 PM

I'm a day or more early, but I'd like to have a new tune in place at the beginning of each month.

December's Practical Standard is I Can't Get Started (With You), by Vernon Duke and Ira Gershwin.

**ragman1** · 11-30-2016, 11:35 AM

I 've got started... just going through Spotify to listen to every known arrangement... I didnt know Mingus was such a good piano player, yes sirree.

I have done this song before but we'll see what happens :-)

**mr. beaumont** · 11-30-2016, 11:57 AM

Django, Joe Beck, Oscar Moore, Jimmy and Doug Raney, a few others on my Spotify feed...

The Zoot Sims with Jimmy Rowles version is my favorite so far. Wow.

Listening to Bob Brookmeyer now. Man, I don't ever get tired of that guy.

**ragman1** · 11-30-2016, 12:16 PM

YouTube is much better. So far there's Barney Kessel, Jim Hall, Jim Mullen, Joe Pass and Billy Bean. Interesting...

Nice 'n slow in C, right? Don't be fooled :-)

**ragman1** · 11-30-2016, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Django, Joe Beck, Oscar Moore, Jimmy and Doug Raney, a few others on my Spotify feed...

Sorry, jumped the posts there. I saw Django and Zoot Sims but didn't listen to all the tracks.

**mr. beaumont** · 11-30-2016, 12:27 PM

Check those out for sure. No guitar on the Zoot, but who cares?

This has been a very pleasant morning listening to all the different takes on this one.

More standouts: Lee and Warne, and Bud Shank.

joaopaz · 11-30-2016, 01:04 PM

This was always one of my favourite guitar recordings 😁... enjoy!

Enviado do meu ALE-L21 através de Tapatalk

**ragman1** · 11-30-2016, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by joaopaz

This was always one of my favourite guitar recordings

Yes, that's lovely. Good one.

**KirkP** · 12-01-2016, 04:46 PM

Seems like this is one of those tunes with an unremarkable, forgettable bridge. But maybe that's an advantage for improv, since you can make what you want of it.
His changes start something like:
| CM7 Am7 | Dm11 G13 | E7 F9 | D13 (Ebdim7) |
Note that F9 has the same notes as Cm6, which momentarily suggests you've gone to the minor key. It's kind of cool to play around with that idea, but I doubt many play it that way these days. (It wouldn't surprise me if Howard Alden did!)
The Ebdim7 is omitted when singing the melody since it clashes, but it works for solos.
Edit2: I found a version of this tune featuring Howard Alden! (If this link doesn't work for you, scroll down to ragman's post.)

**ragman1** · 12-01-2016, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by KirkP

I found a version of this tune featuring Howard Alden!

When I hit the link it came up unavailable. I found it on YouTube, tried it here and it works. Sorry if this is going to be a duplicate for some people.

**christianm77** · 12-02-2016, 07:02 AM

Clifford Brown goes

Bm7 E7 Bbm7 Eb7 | Am7 D7 Abm7 Db7 | in bars 3-4

As far as I can hear.

The Benny Carter goes the same, at least in the bass.

I learned

E7 A7 | D7 G7 | but this doesn't actually fit the melody.

Barnes/Venuti - I think it's

E7 Am7 | D7 G7 |

But then he also plays the sideslip ii-V thing too...

also works as a good turnback for bars 7-8 of the first A section which is what Barnes and Venuti do.

With Bunny Berrigan it's a little more complex because of the sax arrangement,

I don't hear the F9 - think it might be an Ebdim7.

Feel free to correct my jabberings

**ragman1** · 12-02-2016, 07:59 AM

**christianm77** · 12-02-2016, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Depends how into standards you are and what kind of guys you are playing with. Some people are very exacting about changes and really know their standards. Others are more relaxed and happy to have the harmony a bit vague.

It's part of the process of learning a tune to me. Listening to a few different versions and hearing what people have done, what the history of that tune is and what substitutions people play. Good ear training too.

I'd be interested if anyone knows a version with Am7b5 in that bar. I heard Ao7/Ebo7. I think they just put that in to make it a minor ii-V. Typical Real Book haha. (The Real Book often has mistakes, bad changes, BTW, although the Sher books are reliable.)

The alternate is what I think of as the Clifford changes.

Dig deep enough into most well known standards and you will find stuff like this. The thread on 'Here's that Rainy Day' is a case in point.

These alternate changes are rarely different enough to cause huge problems (especially when you are soloing) - but sometimes they are, and Rainy Day is a classic example. The first chord chord be major or minor depending on who you ask.

Another common problem is people playing changes that clash with the melody. For example, never play a Bbm7 when accompanying the head for Days of Wine and Roses. But that's more people not knowing the songs properly, or not thinking about the melody enough.

**christianm77** · 12-02-2016, 11:08 AM

BTW if we get around to doing Embraceable You, that could get confusing haha :-)

**mr. beaumont** · 12-02-2016, 11:15 AM

I'm liking the diminished at the end of bar 4...that's what I'm hearing on that Zoot Sims version too.

I'll try to get up this weekend. Great tune.

**christianm77** · 12-02-2016, 11:19 AM

I had a go today, but I'm having a bit of trouble getting going on this one :-)

**ragman1** · 12-02-2016, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

happy to have the harmony a bit vague.

Oh, I'm not. I want to know what I'm doing!

The alternate is what I think of as the Clifford changes.

What are they?

So what are the right ones then, basically speaking? And if lots of players do different things what does it matter as long as it fits?

(I've got a feeling that at speed it doesn't make a lot of difference. Slowly would, however, because the ear's more sensitive to the harmonies. Good harmonies = good feeling).

**ragman1** · 12-02-2016, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I had a go today, but I'm having a bit of trouble getting going on this one :-)

Quite. That's why I just got on with it!

(And may I repeat the Joe Pass version: |Bm7b5 E7#5#9| Am7 Eb7|D11 Db13|... !)

**ragman1** · 12-02-2016, 11:52 AM

**christianm77** · 12-02-2016, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Oh, I'm not. I want to know what I'm doing!

What are they?

So what are the right ones then, basically speaking? And if lots of players do different things what does it matter as long as it fits?

(I've got a feeling that at speed it doesn't make a lot of difference. Slowly would, however, because the ear's more sensitive to the harmonies. Good harmonies = good feeling).

No idea, I don't think there is a right and wrong necessarily. I actually think people who talk about 'the right changes' are probably dickheads. :-)

I think listening is always the right answer to any question in music.

Listening to recordings can help you know what the options are so you can keep your ears out to what the other players are doing, and work around the melody. It's good to be able to hear as much as possible.

Stylistically, if I was playing swing I would probably just play E7 Am | D7 A7 | or perhaps E7 Am | D7 Ebo7 | but then if it were a later style, probably would go for the alternate changes.

Also, I think on the Benny Carter version sometimes the piano in playing the vanilla changes and the bass (Milt Hinton?) is playing the bop changes. Sounds OK.

Really I'm talking about accompanying the melody, working with singers and so on. But sometimes if you hear the soloist playing a version of the changes you recognise you can play the right accompaniment.

**christianm77** · 12-02-2016, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Quite. That's why I just got on with it!

(And may I repeat the Joe Pass version: |Bm7b5 E7#5#9| Am7 Eb7|D11 Db13|... !)

Going from which bar?

**christianm77** · 12-02-2016, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

You may be interested in this. It's a trumpet site with pdf's etc. Various versions:

Bunny Berigan |E7 Am7|E7 A7|

That's not how I heard it - but I'll give it another listen... My chordal ears aren't the greatest.

Ah so Eldridge started the chromatic sideslip thing did he?

The Dizzy variation is interesting, will have a listen to that.

joaopaz · 12-02-2016, 01:46 PM

Hi guys!

Since I'm going to follow this thread 'til the end I thought I could start with a just play-by-ear take; put one note in front of the other

very simple stuff, just eight notes or less.

It's an honest take, the first one (and only) I recorded ... at this point I know very litte about this music - other than listening to a few YT tracks last night. I know it starts in Cmaj7, I know everyone's talking about the bars 3/4 (E7 / Amin7?) and also about a Edim that just popped up.

I heard many times, of course, the George Barnes version (and I borrowed a few notes somewhere) but I'm, at this point, very much in the dark about structure, chord changes, etc. It's a very melodical tune and I always like that and maybe feel more comfortable for starters, as I did.

Anyway, my idea posting this is that it will force to proceed, study this tune properly, and hopefully later add another, better version.

Hope not to single-handedly, bring down the whole level of the thread

**KirkP** · 12-02-2016, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

KirkP thinks this is good:| E7 F9 | D13 (Ebdim7) | (F9??).

I was just analyzing the Bunny Berigan recording since it's one of the earliest. I commented that the F9 I heard in the recording could also be thought of as Cm6. Since then, I've found one reliable fake book listing that chord as Am7b5, which has the same notes as Cm6, so I guess my ears weren't fooling me.

The Bunny Berigan changes are interesting, but I usually prefer changes closer to "vanilla" (or melody-driven). Then I'll add extensions and tritone subs to jazz them up. I try not to use charts that are reharmonized according to some "definitive" recording -- I'll reharmonize my own way, thank you. But I think comparing the harmonic choices different performers have made is interesting and useful in helping me make the tune my own.
Here's a really nice version - Oscar Peterson Quartet backing up Lester Young. Barney Kessel's voicings are great.

Here's an ireal-pro chart based on what I hear in this recording.
I'm sure most of you know Db7 is just a tritone sub for G7. Db9 is basically the same as G7b5b6b9, without the root. The bass player determines the name.

**ragman1** · 12-02-2016, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

No idea, I don't think there is a right and wrong necessarily. I actually think people who talk about 'the right changes' are probably dickheads. :-)

Well, that's why I'm saying it might not matter that much :-)

Listening to recordings can help you know what the options are

Er, isn't that what's led to all this confusion??!

Also, I think on the Benny Carter version sometimes the piano in playing the vanilla changes and the bass (Milt Hinton?) is playing the bop changes. Sounds OK.

Which one? There are 101 versions on YouTube! The first two are doing E7 Am Dm G9 or something like that. Nothing very clever.

Going from which bar?

Eh? Mine all start from the chorus.

Ah so Eldridge started the chromatic sideslip thing did he?

No, I did! I did that first vid before I even looked at any of this. When I saw E7-Am-D7-G7 I thought 'Ah, Bm-Am so I put in the Bbm and it became Bm-Bbm-Am-Ab7-G7. Honest :-) (But I didn't use it - too many chords at that speed).

Anyway, can't hang around chatting with you all day. Some of us have got lush ballads to work out!