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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    I don't see this happening in general among jazz guitar fans. They seem content to rehash the tunes from the 40s and 50s. I love those tunes too but am just pointing out that there's an entire world out there that we shouldn't ignore.
    I'm a little confused. Are you saying that we're not building a standard repertoire of new music? Because most of the jazz guitar fans I know are way into people like Allan Holdsworth, Scofield, Metheny, and so forth, who are very much doing their own thing.

    As far as pulling out things at jam sessions and such, you tend to go with what you know people know, which is generally Real Book stuff.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    I think some of it has to do with the background folks come to jazz from now....fewer and fewer players "start" with jazz...particularly guitar players...so a cat might come from a rock background where writing originals is something a lot of people do as soon as they can string three chords together..

    in the past, there were plenty of players who made big careers and didn't do a whole lot of writing...now everybody writes. I think it's great...why expand the canon of "must know" tunes even further? Do something new with an old tune everybody knows and write some fresh stuff...

    on the guitar side, Lage Lund is one of my favorite writers...

    i think its it's the background of guitar players and guitar instruction in general that keeps a lot of players from exploring this stuff. Ever go on a non jazz oriented site and see guitar players talk about modes?
    Last edited by mr. beaumont; 01-20-2014 at 01:26 PM.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I think it's great...why expand the canon of "must know" tunes even further? Do something new with an old tune everybody knows and write some fresh stuff...
    Exactly.

    i think its it's the background of guitar players and guitar instruction in general that keeps a lot of players from exploring this stuff. Ever go on a non jazz oriented site and see guitar players talk about modes?
    Yes, but it's a much more basic discussion. There's plenty of advanced discussion on palm mutes and sweep picking, though. \m/ :P

  5. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe
    I'm a little confused. Are you saying that we're not building a standard repertoire of new music?
    I don't know where I said anything like that. All I'm saying is that if you read the online guitar forums, the preoccupation is with tunes from the 40s and 50s

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    I don't know where I said anything like that. All I'm saying is that if you read the online guitar forums, the preoccupation is with tunes from the 40s and 50s
    Well, if, like me, you don't happen to have a steady group of folks to play with, and you go to open jam sessions, that's what you're going to end up playing. If I go to a jam session and call, say, a Metheney tune other than Bright Size Life or Question and Answer, guarantee the response is going to be, "Uh... maybe something a little more familiar?"

    Also, I think that the majority of amateur players (who are making up the forums for the most part) are still working on better ways of dealing with functional harmony. The conventional wisdom is that you need to master that stuff before you get into the more modern stuff. Is that actually true?

    And I wouldn't necessarily say that it's purely a guitar player thing either. I remember reading an interview with Metheney where he said that it was tough finding people to play his stuff because once someone has learned to play bop, it's hard to get them to NOT play bop.

  7. #56
    I agree with everything you've said Joe. I'm just trying to open up the conversation here and on other jazz forums. I don't think it's necessary to learn to play over ii v i chord progressions in order to understand functional harmony and chord/scale theory and be able to play over a tune like the one I posted in the #1.

    And yes, even if you bring a chart of something like Ruth to a jam session, and even with experienced vets, you'll likely find that people will struggle with it.

    I'm not asking why or attempting to invalidate traditional changes by any means. I'm just saying "let's open our ears to other sounds and other writing styles".

    Not sure why this has to be such a big controversy, lol

  8. #57

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    I don't think its controversial. I suspect a lot of people listen to that stuff and maybe even play some of it at home. But for practical purposes, whether it's your bag or not, you end up playing a lot of standards, so that's what you end up talking about. Also, I think that a given player's approach to a tune like "Ruth" is going to be a bit more individual and idiosyncratic because playing over that kind of harmony doesn't really have a formalized methodology the way bop does.

    That said, I do know a sax player who's called "Infant Eyes" at almost every session I've seen him at. Even though it was written in the 60s (I think), it's pretty modern in terms of it having an unusual form (three nine-measure phrases) and non-functional harmony.

    The other thing is, if I go to a session, I want to sound good and have fun. That means I want to play tunes that everybody knows, so we can all cook on it. What I don't want to do is grind through an unfamiliar chart and sound like crap because I've never seen something like it before. That's not jamming. That's rehearsal, and nine times out of ten, it's not fun for anyone but the composer.
    Last edited by Boston Joe; 01-20-2014 at 04:10 PM.

  9. #58

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    This is why Dave Liebman discusses the importance of working with the same musicians over an extended period of time. That's what it takes to get on the same page with the concepts you'll use to approach the music. That's also why it's so dang hard to just throw a bunch of willing subjects together and sound good and get some musical satisfaction without extended preparation. It's very similar to chamber music.

  10. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    This is why Dave Liebman discusses the importance of working with the same musicians over an extended period of time. That's what it takes to get on the same page with the concepts you'll use to approach the music. That's also why it's so dang hard to just throw a bunch of willing subjects together and sound good and get some musical satisfaction without extended preparation. It's very similar to chamber music.
    played some of his charts that just had the scale written out in place of a chord symbol.

  11. #60

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    Interesting discussion ... I would think we could use as references,
    1)composers
    2)performers (performance)
    3)education or how teachers would explain what your talking about or performing.

    It's always difficult to have a discussion about modern or contemporary jazz harmony without understanding the elements of what we're talking about.

    Is the music really new or a camouflage of existing musical organization. That part about existing can become very subjective. If one isn't aware of something, in this case... organization of music... is it modern.

    Which leads to, is modern the composition or the performance. Personally, their the same, by that I mean, the musical elements of each all relate to a Reference.

    Using traditional Maj/Min functional harmonic organization as reference is still pretty common. Even if one uses non-functional organization as means of creating harmonic progression, (harmonic, melodic, rhythmic etc... organization).

    Slash, polychords, nontertial etc... types of harmonic structures usually still have organization and fit into a form. Even if that form uses improvisational methods of development. Example being the tune employs four blocks of composition for one or more performers... the order of performance of those blocks of composition is left up to each performers.

    Anyway... generally what make something contemporary usually involves the organizational aspects of the composition, and composition almost always begins with a reference and relationships.

    There is usually a tonal reference. That tonal reference can be expanded to the point of equal status of each note. But even when we deny the importance of tonality...atonal, there is usually still a unifying device of organization of the notes and their relationships etc... especially with jazz.

    Use of parallelism, shifting tonality, multiple tonal or modal systems still have references.

    I would think the actual voicings are generally just camouflage... not a bad thing, but still a relationship. Is something what I say it is... because I say so. Or are there physical references with historical references.

    It's pretty hard to replace performance time together... even with complete understanding of the music and possibilities of how and where the music relationships may develop.

    Hey jzucker... nice topic, do you have an analysis of the tune from the composer.

  12. #61

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    Perhaps there's an inadvertent process that tends to occur as each generation of new players is drawn to jazz that lends itself to what amounts to the stagnation that Jack is addressing.

    Often, the "jazz" that catches a young player's ear is something new and non-traditional for its day. In the late 60's or early 70's, for example, that might have been McLaughlin, Coryell--Burton, Bitches Brew Miles, "Light as a Feather" era Chick, the odd time stuff that Don Ellis was playing, Joni Mitchell alt tunings, or any one of a thousand other things.

    So the young player attempts to get serious and study the music, perhaps making some headway copying the records of interest, but eventually, finding a teacher or school. It's a rock solid bet that very early in the process, the student will be told that you've got to learn the basics before you deal with all this newfangled stuff, and that's valid, and usually done with the best of intentions. However, as we all know, those "basics" aren't something you pass through lightly. For many, they become a lifetime study, so the kid that came in the door wanting to be John McLaughlin has become totally immersed in Joe Pass, or Wes, or Django or something that's a hard right turn. That kind of immersion is transformative and inevitably, the original lure falls by the wayside, and the students sensibilities change completely. What you basically have is "I came for the fusion but stayed for the bop", or something similar. Does this sound at all familiar to anyone here?

    I don't think things are that much different today. A kid drawn in by Holdsworth, Scofield, Henderson or younger players like Rosenwinkel, Rogers or Lage who attempts to study is likely to get the same "learn the basics first" message. I don't think there's anything wrong with that message, either, except that it's very easy to lose yourself in the basics, and never return to what drew you in in the first place. The net result is that a substantial number of musicians remain focused on a fixed canon, and the music doesn't evolve in the directions Jack or others have mentioned.

  13. #62

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    "Speak no evil"- Wayne Shorter
    "Tell me a bedtime story"- Herbie Hancock

  14. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by jdaguitar2
    "Speak no evil"- Wayne Shorter
    "Tell me a bedtime story"- Herbie Hancock
    non ii-v chord movements but standard chords for the most part.

    Reg - I'll post some analysis shortly

  15. #64

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    What about Tom Harrell? "Sail Away" is pretty cool harmonically.
    Last edited by jdaguitar2; 01-21-2014 at 03:12 PM.

  16. #65

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    Thanks jzucker... I'm usually more interested in what the reference is... for the analysis to follow. I understand that most just want to play and not be bothered with historical reference... which usually breaks down the somewhat magical moments of performance or composition... but that third aspect of modern, being able to teach.

    What our ears or eyes may believed to be...Modern. contemporary or even New, generally isn't. And with analysis and time becoming familiar with the "Modern Harmony"... we'll ignorance is bliss... along the lines of unknownguitarplayer.

    There always seems to be a thin line between how we approach that subject and where the development goes.

    It is always fun to let your ears be the controlling aspect of composition as well as improve. And yea... it is only music, not many really care.

  17. #66

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    I agree that it's too easy to get sidetracked into absorbing the tradition after initially being attracted to modern harmony. It's almost like it was easier and more natural to compose, play, and sound modern by just using your ear. In certain ways, theory can become a barrier that you have to get past, if that makes any sense.

  18. #67

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    Since this is a new chapter, almost a new topic, I'll let my self chime a couple of thoughts.

    1. First thing to decide, do you want to study music, or you want to play it?
    2. If you just want to play it, you can study only topics of interest.
    3. If you want to study, just like in (high)school, there's some program, something you have to read and prepare for the class, exam.
    In your "free" time, nobody can stop you from reading whatever book, comic, magazine, ..., play basketball, ...

  19. #68

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    A few surface observations abut the Ron Miller tune "Ruth":

    36 bar tune

    based on the double bars, 5 sections

    A-8 bars B-6 bars C-8 bars D-6 bars E- 8 bars

    There is one principal motif that is varied throughout that progresses through multiple harmonic areas.

    A, C and E have two 4 bar phrases
    B has a 4 bar phrase and a 2 bar phrase that spills into the next section
    D is organized 2+2+2

    Starting tonal area of each section:

    A. F mixolydian (Bb major)
    B. G phrygian (Eb major)
    C. F# dorian (E major)
    D. Eb mixolydian (Ab major)
    E. III+ (Bb melodic minor) over a C pedal which is the V of the starting chord F13sus

    The note common to the most chords and harmonic areas is G, the exception being a few chords in the C section.
    I listed the parent scale because sometimes that will reveal something that is masked by the root movements.

    I am curious about the 1st two chords in the C section why Ron chose Abm11 and not G#m11?
    My ear and brain interpret those 2 chords as II and III minor in E. Abm11 makes that harder to recognize on paper.

    I look forward to seeing any analysis from Jack, Reg or anyone else so inclined.

  20. #69
    My interpretation (and I also studied this tune in school with Ronnie), based on my minor interpretation :

    | Cm7 | % | Bbm6 | % |
    | Cm7 | Bbm6 | C Melodic Min | Ab melodic minor |
    | Fm6 | % | F melodic min | % |
    | F Melodic Min | % | F#min7 | G#min7 |
    | Bm7 | % | Am7 | Bm7 |
    | Dm7 | % | Bbm7 | % |
    | C melodic min | % | Bbm7 | % |
    | Bb melodic min | (8 bars total)

    I agree with baku that you could interpret the F#m7 - G#m7 as a ii and iii of E but that's now how most cats played over it.

  21. #70

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    I can't hear much of that type of harmony (yet)

    to me it sounds like connected modal sections .........
    Beatrice I can hear OK
    but a lot of Shorter tunes I can't really hear

    To be honest I am still getting the major scale functional harmony stuff together
    Secondary Doms Show tunes , modulations etc etc
    Then I'm trying to rationalize those moves with basic Blues and basic Rock type harmony (Stones etc)

    to Freedom anyway !

  22. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    you're totally missing the point. It has nothing to do with whether the tunes are considered "standards" or are part of any particularly agreed upon repertoire. The point is "the music". The fact that guitarists are for a large part ignoring harmonic movement beyond show tunes of the '50s. In the '60s and '70s when folks like Ritchie Bierach and Ralph Towner decided to push the envelope, they didn't sit back and look for "standards". They created their own music.

    I don't see this happening in general among jazz guitar fans. They seem content to rehash the tunes from the 40s and 50s. I love those tunes too but am just pointing out that there's an entire world out there that we shouldn't ignore.

    I agree completely with the above statement.

    my view point has always been to try to move music forward and never rest on the foundations of what has been created but rather use the foundations to forge new sounds and harmonic structures.

    While knowing how to play over the standards is great for a jazz guitarists foundation, I think the real challenge for all musicians is to try and move forward.

    I think Chris Potter Underground is a good example of where modern jazz can go.


  23. #72

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    Anyone wanting to have a look at some interesting 'charts' could have a look at 'Carla Bley's' website
    Click on the left hand image and go to the library, lot's of free score's.

    Have fun.

    Tom.

  24. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by oilywrag
    Anyone wanting to have a look at some interesting 'charts' could have a look at 'Carla Bley's' website
    Click on the left hand image and go to the library, lot's of free score's.

    Have fun.

    Tom.
    didn't see much in the way of slash or polychords. certainly the root movement is non standard in those charts though. good resource..

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by oilywrag
    Anyone wanting to have a look at some interesting 'charts' could have a look at 'Carla Bley's' website
    Click on the left hand image and go to the library, lot's of free score's.

    Have fun.

    Tom.
    what a fun website.

  26. #75

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    Are there any extant recordings of this song, Ruth, so one could hear this modern harmonization at it is termed?

    Oh, wait. I found it on Youtube by searching Ron Miller - Ruth, tech wiz that I am. The composition as performed by the South Nine, a horn and wind based nonet, is solidly in the key of F with modulations. On YT the nonet music sheets are shown so you can follow along each instrument (the piano is not included). The performance is lovely and it is a beautiful piece written for his wife apparently.

    But as for "modern harmonizations" I would feel perfectly comfortable in the (non-existent) guitar chair. With the YT vid, you can sight read the parts. The harmonization is advanced but elegantly very playable and a great structure for guitar improvisation.

    On the other hand, I get impatient with over analysis. I read the notes, and I hear the harmonies. In point of fact, I learned more about the piece by listening / playing over the song a few times than intellectualizing about what mode it is in. I'd rather just play it and dig it. This one is a beauty. The most challenging part is not written out as I suspect it is a tenor sax solo, but one could transcribe.





    Jay
    Last edited by targuit; 01-22-2014 at 09:16 AM.

  27. #76

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    Jay there is a demo of 'Ruth' here.

    Jeff the website has a lot of 'Steve Swallows' charts as well.

    Chris..

  28. #77

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    Oops, the piano part is written out in notation at the beginning of the tune, and as the chord changes, eg. F dim7, during the sax solo section. The advanced harmonization is really the product here of great voice leading. If Pat Metheny studied with this guy, I think I hear the influence in Pat's music. Beautiful melodies, and elegant harmonies. It is "simpler" than one might think. The brilliance is the composition.

    Jay
    Last edited by targuit; 01-22-2014 at 02:13 PM.

  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    My interpretation (and I also studied this tune in school with Ronnie), based on my minor interpretation :

    | Cm7 | % | Bbm6 | % |
    | Cm7 | Bbm6 | C Melodic Min | Ab melodic minor |
    | Fm6 | % | F melodic min | % |
    | F Melodic Min | % | F#min7 | G#min7 |
    | Bm7 | % | Am7 | Bm7 |
    | Dm7 | % | Bbm7 | % |
    | C melodic min | % | Bbm7 | % |
    | Bb melodic min | (8 bars total)

    I agree with baku that you could interpret the F#m7 - G#m7 as a ii and iii of E but that's now how most cats played over it.
    Jack,

    Would you have interpreted this tune the same if you had not studied it and was just handed the chart... (and had never heard the tune before)???

  30. #79

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    Thanks jzucker...

    It's always helpful to get the starting point, (analysis) close to the source. Personally, analysis is just that starting reference ,
    the starting point for creating relationships and development, (improve and interaction).

    The basic structural aspect of the tune is a somewhat a call and answer devices with almost sub-dom. function... as the means of creating motion. The harmonic movement. I IV and III IV type of relationships with use of pedals, modal interchange and modulations to somewhat camouflage. The melody sound more like notes pulled from target chordal or harmonic implications... hard to hear tonal implications without chords. Not bad, a very common method of melodic composition. The form and rhythmic use also help camouflage. Nice tune... pretty moody

    So I hear and see the pick up as V7alt. (C7alt) of F-,

    (A)
    l I- l % l (IV-) l % l .....Pedal F with F Dor to F Aeo. (sub-dom. type of movement), I would think you would wait to actually imply the IV- or Bb- until second statement...

    l I- l IV- l III7 l bIII- l ... The approach chords to the target of G, lots of possible analysis, again SD type of function.

    (B)
    l II- l % l bIII l % l I- l % l ... Pedal G, again camouflaged use of SD function, with use of MM modal interchange
    ...The basic III- IVmaj II- harmonic movement over G pedal with Modal Interchange use from MM and also hinting at typical Vsusb9 usage, a method of creating Dominant type of motion without actual Dom. function.(creates more tension).

    (C)
    The next block of composition is sequential like... standard break of existing compositional pattern. again using SD type of movement.
    You can spell as Min or sus chords, depends on root motion... still I to IV reference.

    (D)
    Back to the call and answer... Tonic and sub-Dom type of movement... spell as you choose over pedal etc...

    (E) an interlude type of block with camouflaged version of "B" ... transitional .

    I play music like this tune every week... this structural and harmonic usage is almost dated to be called "Modern". The structural elements of composition have become more developed and "chord patterns" or harmonic patterns have become jazz common practice... the use of modal interchange with MM influence and forms. The methods of creating function... the motor that creates harmonic movement have also developed into almost jazz common practice.

    Nice tune... it's a ballad right, fairly standard material. As always the most difficult aspect of playing "modern jazz is the notational practice... many don't know how to notate what they hear.

    Might be fun to hear how to improve over or through the tune...

  31. #80

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    Hey all. Thx for the info and links to 'Ruth'! I heard this tune and read through a chart a few years back, but did not know its origin. I always meant to research, but never took the time. I am hoping I have better luck with it now than I did back then, and will be checking out some of member's analysis for sure.

    Thx again!

  32. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    Oops, the piano part is written out in notation at the beginning of the tune, and as the chord changes, eg. F dim7, during the sax solo section. The advanced harmonization is really the product here of great voice leading. If Pat Metheny studied with this guy, I think I hear the influence in Pat's music. Beautiful melodies, and elegant harmonies. It is "simpler" than one might think. The brilliance is the composition.

    Jay
    Even if Pat didn't study with Ronnie, his music was a huge part of the jazz department. Every guitarist and pianist I knew were working on playing his tunes even if they didn't take his comp class.

  33. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by djangoles
    Jack,

    Would you have interpreted this tune the same if you had not studied it and was just handed the chart... (and had never heard the tune before)???
    I think so if I had had the recording as a reference. Perhaps not just from the chart, which I think suffers from the inability to completely represent this type of tune using '50s style chord symbols.

  34. #83

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    Does anybody know at what time, I mean year and date, this was composed. I'm just curious? Also, was it ever recorded and actually published, and if yes, what was the date?

  35. #84
    It was written in the early '70s and was published and recorded many times. There is information on his site.

    Incidentally, the bigband version is slightly different in the last 8 bars of the tune.

    Ron told me he changed the last 8 bars to make it a bit more "inside" and this seems to be the version that the big band is playing.

  36. #85

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    BTW, I noted a very odd thing earlier today. I went to check the YT link to the video I had posted for the performance of Ruth, and when the music started playing, it sounded very odd, as if it were a different video than the one I thought I had linked. Seems that the link on YT is somehow linked to the Sibelius score itself, and the score was playing back distorted. In fact, you could actually press the "stop" button on the image itself and it worked! Seems that the link is direct to the Sibelius site, perhaps Scorch or whatever it is called where Sibelius users can publish their scores publicly and for Scorch (or whatever it is called) users to access. (I am a Sibelius user, but don't utilize that publishing option.) I think it is a beautiful score. Alarmed at the odd distortion and chorusing effect, I closed the link and then reopened. The second time it played just fine. Odd.

    When you really listen and play the score, you find that the harmonies are not that unusual, and the chord progression is really based on the descending bass line and extensions. I mean, it isn't George Crumb.

    Jay

  37. #86

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    I checked out this Duke Pearson tune recently called "Is That So" (there's a recorded version off the Lee Morgan album "The Rajah" ) that I really like. Pretty modern vibe, chromatic motion, shifting tonalities, resolution to tonic maj chords shift a maj3rd and min3rd apart in separate instances, cool blend of modal as well as functional concepts. As for the adventurous I suppose one could sit around make lead sheets for some Ligeti compositions and see what happens.

    here's the lead sheet
    "Modern" Jazz Harmony-sou00253f-c-png
    Last edited by AleikhBaba; 01-22-2014 at 05:56 PM.

  38. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    When you really listen and play the score, you find that the harmonies are not that unusual, and the chord progression is really based on the descending bass line and extensions. I mean, it isn't George Crumb.

    Jay
    depends on what you mean by unusual. I can play over countdown and giantsteps at 1/4=300 and I struggle to play over ruth so to me it seems unusual.

  39. #88

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    sid jacobs devotes a section to polychords and slash chords towards the end of his book of jazz guitar lines & phrases. earlier in the book, considerable space is given to fourths and pentatonics. all very logical and musical. amazingly, he ties it in to the elegant bebop language demonstrated in the earlier chapters. great book.

  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by randalljazz
    sid jacobs devotes a section to polychords and slash chords towards the end of his book of jazz guitar lines & phrases. earlier in the book, considerable space is given to fourths and pentatonics. all very logical and musical. amazingly, he ties it in to the elegant bebop language demonstrated in the earlier chapters. great book.
    +1 On the Jacobs book.

    It was one of the first jazz guitar books I bought. It was extremely useful in the beginning and shaped the way I see II-V-I's (the way he categorizes II-chord lines, V7-I resolution phrases, etc...), and it continues to be a reference for me all the time.

  41. #90

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    So maybe getting back to what modern harmony implies... or at least something to help organized what we want it to be.

    As jzucker mentioned we generally relate or use as our reference Ionian or Major/Minor Functional harmony. There are established guidelines for how notes and collections of notes react in a composition etc... That doesn't mean they always follow those guidelines, but those guidelines are the basic reference, they're implied even if they never actually happen.

    Function is the result of those guidelines, the motor that creates musical movement, that function whether played or implied is based on how and where those notes and intervals want to go in relationships.
    From these guidelines we have a tonal system.... which is the organization of Function.

    Generally... tonality refers to the relationships of notes, (the key), when we introduce Modality...we change the notes in which the relationships exixt. We're changing the tonal system... the function of the guidelines may or may not remain the same,( tonic, sub-dom. etc...), but the notes which create function change.

    We create new tonalities from different modalities....the next step to to use different note collections to create more tonal systems.... Melodic Minor, blue notes... use pedals or what ever one chooses to create the notes that create the function which creates the tonal system...

    The different tonal systems create different references.... for relationships, ( melodies, chord patterns, whatever...), to function within, different results.

    So some modern harmony generally is results from different tonal systems.

    There is also camouflage of existing harmonic movement. Use of Modal Interchange has opened the doors to changing the harmony to existing chord patterns... standards. Along with use of slash chords and other methods of creating harmony on top of root motion.

    I played a Chick tune last night at a gig, was called Morning Sprite, cool and very bright... different harmony over bass patterns... The charts in New Real Book II

    Anyway made me think of this thread... Most modern Harmonies generally still have somewhat basic references... more from the camouflage school.

    Here's chart of some typical slash chords... a older tune I still play.
    Attached Images Attached Images "Modern" Jazz Harmony-img016-jpg "Modern" Jazz Harmony-img017-jpg 
    Attached Files Attached Files

  42. #91

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    Reg - thank you for the analysis.

  43. #92

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    Speaking of George Crumb and "modern harmonization", try this suite of Christmas tunes. George in a more "melodic" mood. Jokes aside, this video of a talented pianist in Italy playing Crumbs' solo piano music is very fascinating in terms of harmonization. George takes you 'out there' a bit, but in a beautiful and thought provoking way. Music at its best is a kind of journey.



    Jay

  44. #93

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    GC is obviously great classically related composer, and he truly uses different harmonic organizational systems etc... but pretty far from Jazz.

    Does the performance of a tune create the modern or contemporary harmony or the organization behind the tune, performance... or are they one in the same.

    Getting into the performance... an improve technique I use when performing is use of arpeggio embellishments on string sets with pedal or target note(s) like references.

    Basically... I use four string sets, strings 1-4 and 2-5. You do need to know all your two octave position arpeggios of any harmony and anywhere on the fretboard...any position etc..

    simple example could be...

    Take two simple chords... Bb-7 going to A7, Bb dorian to A lyd b7 or Lydian Dom. How ever you want to spell, my target note could be the Eb of Bb-7, the nat. 11 which becomes D# ,the #11 of A7.

    Anyway I could use these mechanical fingerings, the two arpeggios as my reference and begin to create relationships, develop.

    This technique can have many layers of application. There are obviously many basic starting references. Every position of the implied note collection, scale, mode etc.. in all keys and positions... the technical BS, all the fingerings. Then the fun part... creating relationships... how you develop.

    This is great technique for playing through or over more contemporary harmony. Each arpeggio note collection basically becomes one note... here's notated example...

    My arpeggio embellish is based on strings 1-4, top four strings. Bb-7 to A7#11
    Attached Images Attached Images

  45. #94

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    Reg

    I see Abma7 to Gma7#5, extensions of the Bb-7 and A7.


    1. What would be the context for this type of line, several bars of Bb-7?

    2. What factors go into deciding the pair of chords?

    3. What would happen after these two measures? When you use this technique, do you typically loop the pair of arpeggios?

    4. What do you mean by the Eb/D# being the target note? You'll literally end the line on the note?

    Thanks...

  46. #95

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    4. What do you mean by the Eb/D# being the target note? You'll literally end the line on the note?
    A target note can be placed anywhere in the line beginning/end/middle and can be the highest or lowest note as well as an inner voice. Drawing on common tones, step wise motion and melodic leaps to craft (spontaneously) a simple melody or guide line. This then is used as a reference point from which to create melodies of greater complexity.

  47. #96

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    Hey Jake.. hope things are well,

    If it helps, make the Bb-7 a Bb-13... you could make the changes G#maj7 to A13#11, the concept of using the arpeggios would still be the same...but with different starting reference. Which would change the relationships and where the development might go. Not good, bad, right or wrong... but (personally) different.

    I don't see or hear as extensions... maybe when your in the early stages of teaching or explaining you might go through those stages of understanding... personally I believe you get to a point where the notes are what they are and you decide how you want them to work. You obviously need to be aware of historical reference etc... but your usage can determine, through implications, the reference. This is getting into a very complicated and subjective discussion, which I totally dig, but requires a lot of info and expertise. The technique can work with both references.

    The context is fairy open, but yes, lets say four bar phrase of two bars Bb- to two bars A7.

    The factors of deciding on what pair of chords... can be what ever one chooses. In the example I could be playing simple tune like "Gregory Is Here" by Horace... I know Different chords and different chord pattern, (B13#11 to C-11), but concept and application are the same. I use as a starting reference for my improve... the note collections, (the position arpeggios), they become like single notes which I use for creating melodic phrases... Like creating melody or line but using note groupings as the single notes. The creating relationships and developing can be the same... maybe a little more complicated at first.

    You could relate looping the chords to a call and answer type of relationship and develop from that reference.

    If you mean from a teaching or practicing aspect... yes looping would be great.

    My using Eb/D# as target note would mean... that could be the reference tonal target I use as my reference for creating relationships etc... in the example I mentioned simply because of characteristic implications of that note in reference to the chords.

    There's a whole lot of info here and takes a whole lot of technical and harmonic understanding before the technique become part of your voice... but it generally doesn't happen by chance.

    I could try and make vid of a few examples... seeing and hearing generally works best. I'll try and post something in the next couple of days. Maybe even take changes from "Ruth" jzucker brought up... the whole tune is blocks of call and answer over pedals.

  48. #97

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    Thank you Reg. I may have to give your post a few re-reads in a further attempt to truly grasp.

    For now I'll admit being a little lost, so bear with me:

    If the changes to the tune are in fact Bb-7 to A7, and you are playing the arpeggios in the pdf, is the concept simply picking two arpeggios from the respective modes that share a common tone, and you're thinking of that common tone as a target point?

    So for example if we picked a G note as the target, instead of Abma7 to Gma7#5 arpeggios, we could do Gm7b5 to Eminmaj7 ?

    Edit to add:
    another example, like in stablemates when the harmony is Dbma7 to C7#9 we could see it as Db lydian to C altered and use the arpeggios Abma7 to Dbminma7 with either Ab or C as target pitches? Is that it?
    Last edited by JakeAcci; 01-24-2014 at 01:16 PM.

  49. #98

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    Hey Jake... I'm sure part of the difficulty is my explanations etc...

    Think of methods to solo... development of a melody. The reference is the melody, depending on what relationships you choose in that melody to develop, (could be entire melody, short phrase, a simple interval), so depending on what reference you choose for the development... the results may be different.

    Don't get hung up on the basic arpeggio... for that Bb- chord, I could use same four string pattern starting on any scale degree as starting point. And what I usually play is an embellishment of the arpeggio, which could reflect rhythmic pattern, any modal interchange relationship, approach notes or even a simple chord pattern within the arpeggio figure.

    The point is I'm using that string set arpeggio pattern or embellishment of as a component of my improve. I can use as I see or hear fit.

    I can use the common tone as a target or not, again the point is I'm using a reference for constructive device to help organize my development, my improve. And Yes you could use the note G and G-7b5 to E-ma7. There are obviously many choices.

    Why I use these simple four string arpeggio patterns with embellishments is generally because of the ease in which one is able to impose organizational relationships and development within a very mechanical setting. The very nature of the note collection has strong tonal implications as references. As I said... they quickly become easy to hear and as easy to use as single notes.

    Your next example also could work... and that is the basic concept, access to complete note collections. The target(s) can be anything one chooses... not just common tones etc... the point is they're not fixed or stationary components, with only one use ...

    They're very Guitar friendly and yet still employ the arpeggio aspect that old school jazz players tend to harp on about so much.

    As I was saying above... the organization of the notes changes to fit how one chooses to create relationships and develop.Doesn't always need to be organized in 3rds etc... and very easily implies any contemporary harmony, as long as your aware of what that harmony or harmonic concept is.

    The concept is not that difficult... I would thing most would have more difficulty with the technical aspects... knowing your fretboard well enough to use.

  50. #99

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    Cool, thank you for the additional explanation. I think I get the idea now.

  51. #100

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    Reg, if I may ask, how do you finger those arpeggios, especially the 2nd one? Also, without embelishments, do you always play on 4 strings, or you sometimes play 2 highest notes on the same string, B the 2nd, in this example?
    Obviously, I'm thinking about rock 'n' rolling it a bit.
    Last edited by Vladan; 01-24-2014 at 07:38 PM.