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I've been playing jazz for many years.
I'm at the point right now where I can come up with ideas/themes in my head (away from the instrument) over a song that I'm happy with ... say There Will Never Be Another You for maybe a chorus or two.
It took me a very long time to get to this point, but I digress. It's better to play one chorus you're happy with than 10 choruses of garbage.
The problem is translating these ideas in real time. With a guitar in hand, and without time, I can do it. I can figure out the lines and go back and correct my mistakes.
But in real time, it usually happens too fast and it lacks coherency. Obviously, with songs I know better and have practiced more, it's a lot better. And also, with playing over things like a minor blues, I can up with many more ideas on the fly, that's easy.
Now ... the obvious solution is just to keep a cycle of practicing as mentioned above and pre-plan what I'm going to play. For instance, you have one or two stock themes for TWNBAY, that you can always rely on. And you think them out before you play them.
But I was wondering if anybody else had any other suggestions.Last edited by jobabrinks; 05-24-2024 at 11:12 AM.
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05-24-2024 10:53 AM
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I've heard that's the way and if you stick to it for a 5-10 years you'll be just fine.
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Originally Posted by jobabrinks
1] What is in your head? What is the substance of these "ideas/themes in my head"?
- verbal names of notes, intervals, scales, chords, other named theory relationships?
- graphical or geometric patterns or shapes of fingerings on the finger board?
- sounds in your mind's ear of "how it goes"?
- or some other mode of conception?
2] What is needed to play it? What is the substance of how you execute on the instrument?
- verbal names of notes, intervals, scales, chords, other named theory relationships?
- graphical or geometric patterns or shapes of fingerings on the finger board?
- sounds in your mind's ear of "how it goes"?
- or some other mode of conception?
3] Is the translation from 1] to 2] one step, or are there more steps in translation to play it? Is "translating" an interim step from which further steps are needed to execute on the instrument, or just one translation step sufficient to execute directly?
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There's no guarantee, no safe way. All you can do is practice well and what happens in the moment happens.
Don't forget players like Wes and Coltrane who've done takes 2, 5, 7, etc, on some tunes. Even they aren't immune.
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It's actually quite simple (albeit easier said than done), just continue trying to play what you hear, the more you do it, the better you get at it. Some appear to get there quickly, but (excepting unusual talent) it's because they spend hours daily at it, many of us do not have that asset. Originally Posted by jobabrinks
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It's my belief that most players on this forum have some natural aptitude to be able to create jazz lines. It's understood that one essential aspect of learning this and all aspects of jazz is working with the music, both listening and transcribing so you can build understanding and instinct.
However I also think knowing the mechanics of building lines is part of the solution. This has been my experience. Melody was a weak part for me. I could kind of make stuff up or come up with some inspirational stuff in the moment, but clearly wasn't fluent, had the problem of falling flat a lot, maybe like your situation. So I decided to figure out for myself how jazz lines are composed. I came to the conclusion that you use rhythmic vocabulary to phrase in short and long sections - develop or sequence short motifs, and run longer lines. And the shape of melody is comprised of scales, arps, intervals, and chromatics.
To me, this is key. Most players and even educators don't understand this. They think it's either theory on one hand offering this sterile blueprint, and ear instinct on the other hand, that if you just build up really well you'll get it instinctively some day, how all the greats did. To me that's wrong. After I figured out scales, arps, intervals, and chromatics I became fluent in melody in literally a few months. I've been working with this process for about a year now and I can spontaneously play melody easily. It feels like there's no disconnect to being able to play melody, I can just do it because that's literally the only way melodies can be shaped. I can either hear up stuff and execute it and have it sound good, or I can use devices to make up stuff and have it sound good. I'm not a savant but if I take a chord pattern from scratch and just start soloing on it, it'll sound decent and fluent. While if I have internalized the tune or chord pattern, I'll be able to play better stuff either just freely or with some composition.
So yeah, practice the scales, arps, intervals, and chromatics to the chords individually and then practice combining them creatively. That's what melody is composed of. I don't think the main problem is lack of instinct at your stage or someone who's been at it for over a decade for example.Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 05-25-2024 at 02:08 PM.
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Take some simple familiar melodies (Happy Birthday, Christmas songs, folk tunes) , pick a note to start on , and see how you do playing in real time. Your successes and challenges in doing this should give you some insight into the work needed to eventually get your own melodies out ...
PK
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Practice it with a slower metronome? Originally Posted by jobabrinks
I find I get rusty at this sort of thjng if I don’t practice it.
I need to warm up. Maybe by playing stuff I know well in a different key by ear, that sort of thing.
I think improvisation is quite a modular activity especially at tempo. Most players seem to operate in pre-heard chunks above a certain speed. Not licks per se, but units of three-five notes that are chained together.
Music isn’t in my opinion heard note by note but at the word/sentence level.
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I think it's a fundamental skill even though we tend to talk about other things more often.
It develops with time on the instrument, whatever you're playing.
I don't know how much it can be accelerated, but it certainly can be practiced. Every time you hear some music, try to play it. For example, if you noodle in front of the TV, copy whatever music is playing. Copying what you hear on recordings or simply trying to play songs you know (without charts). Seems to me it's gotta help.
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Originally Posted by jobabrinks
Yea... It can happen ...a couple of ways,
1) Perform with real Jazz Players, what that means is we don't play Jazz Tunes...we play in Jazz Styles.
When you play with jazz players... they will help you both with verbal understandings, but also be able to actually play ... like now in real time.
I've work with a few ensembles that like playing jazz tunes and like yourself need to basically practice what they want to play. Over a few years they are starting to get it... example... at one of my gigs this week, the leader of the band, (he gets the gigs and $ etc...), anyway had a set list,... I started changing the styles and even the changes which needs to be reflected in the melody etc... but they're starting to get it. I usually give verbal cues as we play through the form... and had also before we started.
-example... 1st tune was so what... I changes the the "A" section into a 1/2 tine feel and made changes A-9 to B-7 with lead line pedal B on top 1st two bars, Then expanded bars 5-8 and 2nd "A" was almost same just standard variations to make lock etc...
Then... The "B" section went into a jazz Hip Hop and changes became F-7 to Bb7... which would open a bunch of doors for the solos to go.... Anyway still made verbal and also directional cues etc... audience loved it and we weren't playing same old shit LOL.
At another gig we were playing "Cariba", wes tune and instead of a latin feel we play in heavy swing... and changed the turnaround in to V9sus IV9sus blII9sus II9sus V7alt. again
All this is just BS that helps one learn how to play in a jazz style as compared to just learning Jazz tunes by way of actually doing it with pros...
Doing it and... not really pulling it off, just leads to not really doing it. Although can be really good for motivation LOL
The other approach is ... get your shit together technically. Chops, Melodically, Harmonically and Rhythmically.
Split your practice into
1) technical practice
2) performance practice
They are very different... most don't get the technical shit together. Need self motivation or teacher who can actually also play etc...
It's not easy, playing jazz needs a really high level of skills and also needs the ability to mentally perform at high and consistent levels during performance and also be aware of what the other players are also doing. It ain't easy.
But obviously does happen.
But without chops or developed technical skills it almost impossible without the Trial and error and memorize approach.
The shit in your head need to be translated on your instrument in Longer section. Licks not Notes. Licks also imply chords and Rhythmic patterns all at once. Playing slow single notes from your head teaches playing slow single notes etc...
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Please tell me this was recorded for posterity. Originally Posted by Reg
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Yeah Reg. I want to hear this too. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Yea... LOL ... really, this is somewhat standard BS when playing old tunes. I'll check, there was audience members recording with their phones. I mean I'm not really a background player, I always try and get audiences involved.
I saw another member starting a new thread playing Jazz Blues .... playing BlueMonk in Minor looked like 1st tune.
I'll call this type of shit all the time... playing tunes in their relative or parallel Min or Maj... or modal etc.. like I did with So What.... it's not really that big of a deal. Old Tunes get old LOL
Allen I'll try and make vid to show example...
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I just think I need to see what passes as “Jazz Hip Hop.”
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For the record:
Ron Carter on Low End Theory, or bust.
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Yes, I had the same thought. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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