New ways to practice scales/making music out of scales

[Bobby Timmons]

My advice would be - don’t worry about improvising for now. Instead steal other peoples stuff and repurpose it until you can fake improvisation. The aim should be to sound good. Any means to do this are legitimate. This will teach you the feel and sound of the music. You can’t use scales to improvise unless you can already play jazz.

Improvs are never just scales alone, or arpeggios alone, or chromatic runs alone, or chord sounds alone, and so on. They're the result of all these things honed into a musical result that fits with the harmonies and does justice to the tune, and that only comes with experience and musical ability. Doesn't mean you shouldn't practice and know all those ingredients, of course, but ingredients alone don't produce the cooked dish.

Experience and ability plus work with the real music are required to get jazz improv, but that doesn't mean you can't immediately learn the methodology for creating jazz lines from scratch too. Not that it matters anyway since the OP's probably gone.

[pamosmusic]

Experience and ability plus work with the real music are required to get jazz improv, but that doesn't mean you can't immediately learn the methodology for creating jazz lines from scratch too. Not that it matters anyway since the OP's probably gone.

Important to note that most normal people don’t check JGO 87 times a day. They’ll probably be back.

For selfish reasons I want to see a transcription.

[Bobby Timmons]

Important to note that most normal people don’t check JGO 87 times a day.

I'm shocked. Shocked I say.

Traitor! You realize you'll have to change your forum name now? Can't keep that one.

Do you like my new screen name?

[jcbgtr]

here’s the classic Bird solo on Yardbird Suite, for whoever wanted to see a transcription I’ve done.

[pamosmusic]

Told you

[pamosmusic]

here’s the classic Bird solo on Yardbird Suite, for whoever wanted to see a transcription I’ve done.

Man this sounds awesome. You don’t need anyone’s help here.

[Bobby Timmons]

^ If he already has that ability, there's no reason he can't easily pick up the mechanics for creating jazz lines from scratch. Scales, arps, intervals, chromatics, use rhythmic vocab to phrase in short and long sections..

Told you

But then he'll probably disregard my perfectly pertinent advice. :P

[pamosmusic]

Fortunately I’m insufferable and can’t help it and my toddler is watching Pepa Pig.

so here you go:

This is just on some ways to use the licks to make for more interesting scale practice.

I can do some stuff on the chromatic language later, if no one’s gotten to it. And using the lick to come up with improvising ideas etc.

[ragman1]

Do you like my new screen name?

You'll have to be Jim-Bob till I get used to it.

[pamosmusic]

I’ll definitley post some vocabulary stuff, but here would be a good primer:

I can think of maybe four useable pieces of vocabulary just in the short line I used above

[Tal_175]

here’s the classic Bird solo on Yardbird Suite, for whoever wanted to see a transcription I’ve done.

Very nice. If you like this solo, you can probably mine it to extract language for the next couple of years. Most of us move from one transcription, etude, or lick to another without fully reaping the benefits of learning them in the first place.

The first step of extracting language from a solo is to becoming aware of how the lines in the solo align with the form and the harmony. For this you may benefit from writing it down and putting chords on each measure and analyzing the lines with respect to the chords. That is not hard to do and you can get plenty of help from the forum. This is a kind of thing that the forum format works well. Once you can see how the lines intervallically relate to chords, not only you can apply these lines to other tunes but they will also teach you how to construct phrases from scales.

It seems like you might be good at self teaching. That's good because no one has ever learned jazz in any other way.

[pamosmusic]

The first step of extracting language from a solo is to becoming aware of how the lines in the solo align with the form and the harmony.

This is a valid point, but honestly I’d probably disagree.

Im generally more interested in finding the melodic structures inside the line first. Like the one I posted is an Em triad. It could fit over numerous things, but being able to pick out that underlying structure is what makes you able to see all the bebop-isms for what they are. Approach notes, chromaticism, all that good stuff. Then you can start to apply those building blocks more freely as the melodic tools they are.

[Bobby Timmons]

You'll have to be Jim-Bob till I get used to it.

Oh no.

[Tal_175]

Im generally more interested in finding the melodic structures inside the line first. Like the one I posted is an Em triad. It could fit over numerous things, but being able to pick out that underlying structure is what makes you able to see all the bebop-isms for what they are. Approach notes, chromaticism, all that good stuff. Then you can start to apply those building blocks more freely as the melodic tools they are.

That's an excellent approach but I think requires some experience and exposure to harmony and line construction to do well. Learning how the lines in an idiosyncratic bebop solo fit with various chord types is I think a good first step before applying a given idea to different parts of a chord.

[ragman1]

Oh no.

Oh yes :-)

[Reg]

Hello, this is my first post on this forum.

I’m a young guitar player. Been around music of all kinds my whole life but didn’t start playing until 4 years ago, only really been playing jazz for the last 9 or so months. I’ve checked out all of the big name jazz musicians to some degree, that goes for guitarists and non-guitarists. I’ve transcribed probably 20 jazz solos, mostly guitar stuff (wes, Jim hall, Howard Alden, Peter Bernstein, etc) but I’ve learned some Bird solos too. I’d still consider myself a beginner jazz player but I’ll also say that I can “get through” most tunes that you put in front of me. Wont always sound good though. Lol

anyways, my concern is that I never really know how to practice scales in a musical way. I can play them straight up and down all over the neck and in 3rds/4ths/different patterns etc and I know the theory behind building scales and chords and how they “go together” but I feel like I always fall flat when it comes to making melodies and music and lines out of it all. Same goes for transcriptions, I find it difficult to apply the lines and concepts I steal from other people into my own playing. Help please! I want to get out of this rut asap.

Yea... your technique... looks good.

So you said you understand the theory behind building scales and chords etc... but what you probable don't hear or understand is how to expand those understandings with different References. Playing jazz or in a jazz style is being able to have different musical understandings .... (of how the notes, (scales, arpeggios etc..) and the Chord(s) and Chord Patterns), work together with different "REFERENCES".

You have a Reference... then create Relationships with that Reference(s) and then Develop those Relationships.

Your short post of Yardbird... is an example of using old swing and blues styles. Obviously great example... but

Simple... Standard A A B A style Form tune with "A" sections being the tonal Reference of Cmaj. and the "B" section going to the other Relative Minor... E min. .

The "A" section are an expanded I VI II V.... .yada yada... anyway it's just a Blues tune. A jazz Blues Tune.

Melodic development needs rhythmic development.... and when playing in a jazz style... you need harmonic development.

I think Tal brought up being aware of the Form and Harmony.... but that's just becoming aware of the Doors....

Personally the Form... needs to be a given. The harmony is where most have problems.

How many ways can you comp through the changes .... Playing in a jazz style is about using "Chord Patterns" not just basic chords or changes... or 3rds and 7rth or shells etc...

Embellishment needs harmonic organization within a Form . Most just copy or memorize licks.... use their ears and over many years develop skills for soloing.

Obviously... soloing is fun and most guitarist put way too much time working on it. We're not sax players, most our time is comping...

Try just playing a solo using chords... which will become ...using Chord Patterns with practice. And you ears will learn how to use harmony as well as Melodic development and rhythm etc...

It will become another musical Tool to use when developing solos. It helps organize the space within the FORM.

[Bobby Timmons]

[pamosmusic]

That's an excellent approach but I think requires some experience and exposure to harmony and line construction to do well. Learning how the lines in an idiosyncratic bebop solo fit with various chord types is I think a good first step before applying a given idea to different parts of a chord.

Im probably not being clear, but I think the opposite is true. I’ll make a video at some point today. But say — you know this is an Em triad which means you can say “ah this is an enclosure of the third which then skips down to the root.” Now you can super easily do that over every chord in the tune. “Well what if I try it with the fifth, skipping down to the third? Or the root skipping down to the fifth?”

Now you’ve pretty easily got options that can help you voicelead in an idiomatic way without ever having to worry about substitutions and that sort of thing.

My only issue with analyzing it harmonically, is that maybe you see that line over a C major chord (it’s actually over an Em) and you might learn something useful (“hey I can play Em over a Cmaj”) …. Or you might get hung up saying you’re playing the root of the chord, then the seventh, then the fifth, then the sharp fourth, then the third. So bird is playing Lydian over that chord or something. Which wouldn’t be the most useful or relevant way of approaching the collection of notes he uses

[pamosmusic]

Alright here’s more of what I mean about vocabulary, as it pertains to that one lick in Yardbird:

[BreckerFan]

Great playing! Good tone, feel, and technique. My guess would be that since you can hear and play at a high level, and you notice that your improv doesn't sound how you want, you have an idea in your head of how you want to sound. So what you need to practice is how to get that sound on the guitar.

What I've done to work on that is write etudes over chord changes. Pick a 2-5-1 and sing a line independent of the guitar, and then figure it out on the guitar. It's key to sing it first to avoid falling into any mechanical patterns on the guitar and really make it guided by your ears. Maybe try transposing it into different keys so you can practice finding that sound on different parts of the neck. You can expand this to a chorus of a tune you want to work on for example. This kind of practice, combined with transcribing, is, imo, the best way to expand your vocabulary but also to help you create your own personal vocabulary.

[Tal_175]

Alright here’s more of what I mean about vocabulary, as it pertains to that one lick in Yardbird:

What you show is the motivic approach. I think it is super useful for many things such as burning certain phrases into your muscle memory, learning the changes to a new tune, hearing the harmony of the tune, learning the fretboard etc.

That said, pedagogically, I don't think it is a very easy way of building vocabulary. Again, I do think it's a good practice activity that I have been using for many years. But how do you exactly go from motives to a rich vocabulary that can be played in real time? Learn 20-30 motivic ideas and be able to apply each of them to different chords in a variety of ways in a way that you can do this on the fly creatively? I think that leaves too many things to recall and use in too many unspecified ways for a beginning improviser, no?


A more attainable way is to collect specific ideas for common chord types (or groups of them). One way to obtain the individual ideas could be by the type of motivic work you are talking about. Suppose you like enclose the 5th then down to 3rd. Ok work on that for dominants in different keys in all areas of the fretboard until it becomes accessible in tunes as one of your jumping off ideas for dominants. You may also add a version of this idea to other chord types and add it to your vocabulary for those chords.

What I'm talking about is the mental organization of these types of material. Should you mentally group them as different motives that could be applied to different chords, or should you use these motives to work out concrete ideas per chord type and group them per chord type? I found the latter to be more readily usable but also easier to combine with arpeggios and scales associated with each chord. Has that not been your experience?

[pamosmusic]

What you show is the motivic approach. I think it is super useful for many things such as burning certain phrases into your muscle memory, learning the changes to a new tune, hearing the harmony of the tune, learning the fretboard etc.

That said, pedagogically, I don't think it is a very easy way of building vocabulary. Again, I do think it's a good practice activity that I have been using for many years. But how do you exactly go from motives to a rich vocabulary that can be played in real time? Learn 20-30 motivic ideas and be able to apply each of them to different chords in a variety of ways in a way that you can do this on the fly creatively? I think that leaves too many things to recall and use in too many unspecified ways for a beginning improviser, no?


A more attainable way is to collect specific ideas for common chord types (or groups of them). One way to obtain the individual ideas could be by the type of motivic work you are talking about. Suppose you like enclose the 5th then down to 3rd. Ok work on that for dominants in different keys in all areas of the fretboard until it becomes accessible in tunes as one of your jumping off idea for dominants. You may also add a version of this idea to other chord types and add it to your vocabulary for those chords.

What I'm talking about is the mental organization of these types of material. Should you mentally group them as different motives that could be applied to different chords, or should you use these motives to work out concrete ideas per chord type and group them per chord type? I found the latter to be more readily usable but also easier to combine with arpeggios and scales associated with each chord. Has that not been your experience?

Sort of. I take your point, but I’m thinking more about the ornaments than the notes they’re decorating. That’s where a lot of the vibe lives.

But yeah. Next phase would be taking that E min triad idea in whatever form and working it into lines based on where minor ideas generally fit. Over the minor changes — maybe off the six of a major chord.

And to answer your question, how do I bridge that gap. Brecker mentioned the etude writing. Thats the ticket. I usually opt for a more fluid line-building kind of thing but that’s more of a learning style difference than anything.

[Reg]

Yea Tal... and then you start organizing the harmonic references.

The note collections, scales, arpeggios, embellishments, Licks all melodic vocabulary..... change with different Harmonic references.

Peters point and approach using melodic mechanical relationships developed from mechanically expanding...is cool etc... and standard practice material... but is very vanilla. It's almost like you don't care about the rest of the ensemble. We are not Backing tracts.... we interact etc... ( although it does happen much more that it use to.)

The other.... very big point is.... you really need chops... both melodically and rhythmically. Not many guitarist ever get there. The OP sounded pretty good.... but he was playing a memorized solo....he probable practiced the solo etc...
Jazz is never in slow motion... at least with good jazz players. You don't played memorized solos....

Swing music became more interesting with introduction of blues and faster tempos etc...

Blues implies Harmonic organization... it's different harmonic references for developing improv from.

It's just another step one needs to take when approaching trying to playing tunes in a Jazz style. As compared to just playing jazz tunes.

[pamosmusic]

Peters point and approach using melodic mechanical relationships developed from mechanically expanding...is cool etc... and standard practice material... but is very vanilla. It's almost like you don't care about the rest of the ensemble. We are not Backing tracts.... we interact etc... ( although it does happen much more that it use to.)

(deep sigh, removes glasses, rubs bridge of nose)

Most jazz in most situations is playing pretty close to the changes. Pretty standard ways of embellishing or generalizing the changes.

What the rhythm section absolutely cares about is — rhythm. So working on being flexible with small idiomatic building blocks is actually a pretty darned good way of encouraging interaction.

And you take those pieces of idiomatic language into whatever harmonic situation you get into down the road

[pamosmusic]

For what it’s worth, it’s been a while since a drummer asked me about my harmonic reference, but maybe that’s just the company I keep.