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Hello, this is my first post on this forum.
I’m a young guitar player. Been around music of all kinds my whole life but didn’t start playing until 4 years ago, only really been playing jazz for the last 9 or so months. I’ve checked out all of the big name jazz musicians to some degree, that goes for guitarists and non-guitarists. I’ve transcribed probably 20 jazz solos, mostly guitar stuff (wes, Jim hall, Howard Alden, Peter Bernstein, etc) but I’ve learned some Bird solos too. I’d still consider myself a beginner jazz player but I’ll also say that I can “get through” most tunes that you put in front of me. Wont always sound good though. Lol
anyways, my concern is that I never really know how to practice scales in a musical way. I can play them straight up and down all over the neck and in 3rds/4ths/different patterns etc and I know the theory behind building scales and chords and how they “go together” but I feel like I always fall flat when it comes to making melodies and music and lines out of it all. Same goes for transcriptions, I find it difficult to apply the lines and concepts I steal from other people into my own playing. Help please! I want to get out of this rut asap.
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05-19-2024 01:10 AM
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Scales are to learn where notes are on the guitar and how to get around. Think of it like learning street names. Just because you know Evergreen Terrence exists doesn’t mean you know the best way to 742 Evergreen Terrence.
Everyone loves a YouTube video so here’s one I saw that has someone practicing a few licks and hammering them into a solo.
to take this from country to jazz. Grab a long (2 bar) ii V I lick, figure out what to change to make it minor, then plug it into Blue Bossa over and over. Play your 2 bar line as C- F- C- C- Db Db C- C-
Once you’ve got that, get another lick and do the same until you have 8 unique licks and have a reconstructed transposition. Since you learned them all in major, minor and the 3 (sort of) key centers. You can now pick and choose. Voila, improvisation is happening.
You don’t play a gig like this, but this is how you learn.
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Welcome to the forum.
The reason that although most would think scales are essential practice material for melody but that they don't lead to realistic melodies, is that real melodies in the wild are not shaped in only scales. Think about it, do any good melodies only go do re mi sol fa la ti do? No. You have to learn how to shape the melody naturally. How do you go about understanding a method for that? Combine scales with the other ways melody can be shaped - scales, arpeggios, plus also intervals, and chromatics. Practice them individually over the changes then practice combining them. The last thing is to phrase in short and long sections. Little motifs sequenced or developed and longer lines.
Originally Posted by jcbgtr
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It sounds like you have a lot of the mechanics down but are still learning to think like a jazz player. This is a common problem amongst new jazzers; you're not alone. Keep transcribing and keep listening to a lot of jazz. These activities will help you to develop your conceptualization of what a "good" jazz melody is and how it works.
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Greetings, It sounds like you've been focusing more on the mechanics of playing than how to apply them. You should be able to play phrases you hear in your head, the fact that you can transcribe solos means you have an aptitude for that but you need to be able to do it in real time. Take a simple lick or phrase you hear and analyze it - what key/scale is it in? Play it over chord changes with a metronome or backing track. Then embellish it, expand upon it, alter it to to fit different chord changes, etc. Start with simple progressions, e.g., blues, and go from there. Originally Posted by jcbgtr
We need to practice what we want to do. If one wants to become a good improviser, one needs to practice improvising. You can do that with scales, i.e., make melodies out of them, but that's more advanced because you have many more note combinations to choose from.
Attached is an exercise based on a Keith Jarrett improvisation that is relevant to your question.
Jimmy Smith said: "real melodies in the wild... "
They're so hard to track down, and are expert at hiding from hunters. I even signed up for a 1 week melody safari once. It was a complete bust! We captured one little one which later got away.
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cbgtr
Hello, this is my first post on this forum.
Welcome..
You have found a very good site for your interest in jazz and guitar..many good players on here and even some seasoned pros.
The Keith Jarrett exercises that are posted are excellent.
Now to obtain your stated goal..this will of course take alot of time dedication and practice.
In addition to the Jarrett exercise- I suggest a Ted Greene melodic pattern exercise.
Key of D major..note pattern 2 3 1 5 E F# D A
now your going to move this to every chord within the scale-so for Emn7 -- F# G E B
F#min7--G A F# C #
GMA7 A B G D
and so on.
Learn this in all positions and string sets .. then in ALL Keys
then play ever other scale degree IM7 iii7 V7 vii7b5 ii7 IV7 vi7 IM7--and again in all positions-ALL Keys..this will take some time to digest this.
In doing this you will begin to hear the pattern imply the chord and in time you will be able to invert the pattern - add to it - displace the notes
infuse melodies from tunes and so on.
Now the Jarrett exercise will be far more helpful
By the way,,On the Ted Greene.com site..he has that exercise in over 200 possible variations just in the Key of D.
Hope this helps
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It sounds like you’re pretty far along for a beginner. Originally Posted by jcbgtr
Would you be up for posting one of your transcriptions?
It might help if we (or maybe just I) could see what you’re checking out. That way I could maybe give some advice in the context of something you’re working on.
I would also say that chromatic embellishment is a good avenue to get into. A lot of that comes from transcribing too.
Another thing — scales absolutely can be music. Context here is that it’s a forum full of guitarists (and the occasional rogue organist). We tend to see things in terms of chords and chord tones, for obvious reasons. But other instruments — trumpet and saxophone, for example — play plenty of scalar lines. They just also happen to have exceptional command of their articulation and dynamics. So while you’re hunting for alternatives to pure scale practice, try thinking about what articulation and dynamic work might look like with those scale and interval exercises you’re already working on. Accent patterns are a good place to get to for starters.
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Hi! Originally Posted by jcbgtr
First of all welcome to the Jazz Guitar On Line Forum.
I have just published on my YouTube channel a video with 5 "Multi-Purpose"
Melodic Lines based exclusively on the notes of the major scale......with some arpeggios and without alterations (sharps or flats). I think that these lines can be more interesting and useful if compared the up-and-down scales.
Of course you can download the free PDF file from my website.
I will be very happy to have your opinion on this way of playing major scales.
Bye!
Ettore
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In #ihaveavideoforthat …
I made this a while back:
It’s from the modular lick thread:
Modular lick compendium
At this point if I’m practicing scales, I’m either using a lick like this to work on them, or I’m doing more rote exercise type stuff but specifically working on articulation type stuff. Which I’ve been yakking about over here:
Bebop Technique
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Welcome!
I'd say: "sing something" spontaneously in your mind and try playing it on the guitar. That's why we practice scales, arpeggios, licks etc. to train our fingers to be prepared to play instantaneously any interval, any melody that comes to mind while improvising.
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OP: "I never really know how to practice scales in a musical way."
What is music?
No sarcasm. If you know what music is, then just try doing it with those scales.
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I'm now a rogue pianist. The organ is up for sale! Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Hammond XK-5 Digital Organ Complete Custom System | eBay
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If you've got all the notes under your fingers but it's not sounding musical, then it's likely rhythm and phrasing you need to work on. Actually, there might not be anything more important. And you can do that while practising scales. Just pick a little rhythmic thing and play the scale patterns that way. Play 3 note patterns over 4/4. Play them in quarter and eighth note triplets, etc.
The great players can make music with 3 or 4 notes. Check out how Ed Cherry massages an old chestnut into something special. OP seems pretty new, so if he hasn't heard of 'the pocket', well here it is:
Henriksen Bud sounding killer
Thanks to Oomph for posting that clip.
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Yeah, I can upload some of my transcriptions to YT and copy paste the link here.
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Just one would be fine … honestly just would be interested in an example of a lick you like that you’ve been struggling to make use of. Originally Posted by jcbgtr
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My advice would be - don’t worry about improvising for now…. Instead steal other peoples stuff and repurpose it until you can fake improvisation.
The aim should be to sound good. Any means to do this are legitimate.
This will teach you the feel and sound of the music. You can’t use scales to improvise unless you can already play jazz.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by Christian Miller; 05-20-2024 at 05:35 AM.
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Improvs are never just scales alone, or arpeggios alone, or chromatic runs alone, or chord sounds alone, and so on. They're the result of all these things honed into a musical result that fits with the harmonies and does justice to the tune, and that only comes with experience and musical ability.
Doesn't mean you shouldn't practice and know all those ingredients, of course, but ingredients alone don't produce the cooked dish.
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Since you've already transcribed 20 solos, one thing to do is to ask yourself which things you like and which things you don't like. Then steal the parts you like!
They'll become part of you, and you'll build your own voice from there.
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Traitor! You realize you'll have to change your forum name now? Can't keep that one. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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That’s a shame. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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It makes you realize how overpriced plank guitars are. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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^ Think so? After depreciation maybe. The digital Hammond rig is 13k new which is a ripoff. I could get a nice used amazing upright Kawaii piano for 2k. Could get a grotty but nice vintage Rhodes for that also. Could get a nice vintage tonewheel for around 3k.
Think so? I could do that. Aesthetics peeve me, of being a pianist with organist screen name, but I told myself to let it go. Originally Posted by Mick-7
Why's it a shame? I can play whatever instrument I want! I don't friggin like the digital organ and I'm better at piano. I could get back into organ later but I would have to get a 500lb tonewheel. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 05-20-2024 at 04:15 PM.
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Originally Posted by Mick-7
Oh wait! .... "From 1951 to 1954, Jimmy Smith played piano, then organ in Philly R&B bands like Don Gardner and the Sonotones. He switched to organ permanently in 1954 after hearing Wild Bill Davis." Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
So you may keep your forum name after all, just add "backwards" or "in reverse" after it.
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I already pm'd Dirk if he can change my name to Bobby Timmons.
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Wes said he never practiced anything he wouldn't play in performance (because everything you need to know how to do is in the tunes you want to be able to play). Originally Posted by jcbgtr
A nice way to "put a tune in front of you" for practicing is to connect your computer to your HIFI and play along with a streaming jazz site.
Reply With Quote
Which tune is that ?
Today, 04:55 PM in Other Styles / Instruments