Part 3 - Playing over Dm7b5 G7 Cm7 using Ebmin-Ab7 and Abm7-Db7

[jzucker]

Example 3 is a slight variation of example 2. Here we are thinking of Ebm7-Ab7
over the Dm7b5 and Abm7-Db7 over the G7.


Don't be dismayed that we are using a Gb and Db over the Dm7b5 or that we are
using a Gb over the G7. The extended harmony created by the line itself is what
makes it sound good. If these sounds are foreign or dissonant to you, take a listen
to John Coltrane's Lush Life album recorded in 1957 where he began playing these
kinds of things. Pat Martino borrowed liberally from this way conceptualizing
harmony as well.


Again, the reason this works is that the Ebm7-Ab7 is the tritone 2-5 of G and
Abm7-Db7 is the tritone 2-5 of C.


This is very common thinking utilized in the post-bebop period by Coltrane but
also people like Wes Montgomery, Pat Martino, Joe Pass and other
modern players.

#sheetsofsound #halfdiminished #min7b5
#jazzguitarlessons #guitarlessons
#jazzguitar #modernjazzguitar #jazzguitarriffs
#IbanezGuitars #IbanezBenson #altereddominant

[pamosmusic]

Hey Jack …

Tangentially related question. The dominant stuff with the diminished relationships is all over Coltrane, but do you have reference recordings for the dominant a half-step down from the major?

Im assuming you’ve transcribed a bit more Coltrane than I have, so just curious. It’s a very cool sound.

EDIT: also didn’t see a general “dodecaphonics” thread but could certainly move this post over there if that’s already thing.

[Mick-7]

Hey Jack …

Tangentially related question. The dominant stuff with the diminished relationships is all over Coltrane, but do you have reference recordings for the dominant a half-step down from the major?

Im assuming you’ve transcribed a bit more Coltrane than I have, so just curious. It’s a very cool sound.

EDIT: also didn’t see a general “dodecaphonics” thread but could certainly move this post over there if that’s already thing.

Jack addressed that in this thread: Lesson - improvisation substitutions over ii-V-I, Cm7-F7-Bbmaj7

I have not seen any examples of Trane doing it though - other than in Countdown and Giant Steps where it's in the chord changes.

[pamosmusic]

Jack addressed that in this thread: Lesson - improvisation substitutions over ii-V-I, Cm7-F7-Bbmaj7

I have not seen any examples of Trane doing it though - other than in Countdown and Giant Steps where it's in the chord changes.

Hmm. Not sure I’m seeing the answer in there.

I should be more specific though, because he has posted something about that E7 over F major, which he attributes to Parker. I guess I’m more curious about the diminished cinematic universe related to that chord. B7 over Cmaj7 is a harmonic minor kind of sound (though the diatonic subs would not be, strictly speaking) and the D7 is a Lydian sort of sound, but the F7 and Ab7 is pretty different.

Curious if it was something Jack found in the wild, or found based on the theoretical approach and worked it out. Just curious. All cool sounds.

[Tal_175]

Hmm. Not sure I’m seeing the answer in there.

I should be more specific though, because he has posted something about that E7 over F major, which he attributes to Parker. I guess I’m more curious about the diminished cinematic universe related to that chord. B7 over Cmaj7 is a harmonic minor kind of sound (though the diatonic subs would not be, strictly speaking) and the D7 is a Lydian sort of sound, but the F7 and Ab7 is pretty different.

Curious if it was something Jack found in the wild, or found based on the theoretical approach and worked it out. Just curious. All cool sounds.

He is just doing the good old tritone substitution.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah I get the justification for it. Not arguing — hand to god — just was curious if it was something he found out in the wild, or a Zuck Original.

[Tal_175]

Yeah I get the justification for it. Not arguing — hand to god — just was curious if it was something he found out in the wild, or a Zuck Original.

Tritone substitution?

[pamosmusic]

Tritone substitution?

As it relates to the dominant down from the Maj7 chord, yeah. Or diminished relationships, and the diatonic stuff.

Just asking because the stuff as it relates to the dominants is all over Coltrane and various hard bop dudes

[Tal_175]

As it relates to the dominant down from the Maj7 chord, yeah. Or diminished relationships, and the diatonic stuff.

Just asking because the stuff as it relates to the dominants is all over Coltrane and various hard bop dudes

"Again, the reason this works is that the Ebm7-Ab7 is the tritone 2-5 of G and
Abm7-Db7 is the tritone 2-5 of C."

This is just garden variety tritone substitution, right? Am I missing something?

[pamosmusic]

"Again, the reason this works is that the Ebm7-Ab7 is the tritone 2-5 of G and
Abm7-Db7 is the tritone 2-5 of C."

This is just garden variety tritone substitution, right? Am I missing something?

Sorry. I’m not talking about this specific thing. The dodecaphonics thing in general. A concept that comes up elsewhere. See the first post I put up there. At this point I’ll start a new thread somewhere

[rpjazzguitar]

Garden variety: Ab7 (Ab C Eb Gb) would be a tritone sub for D7 (D F# A C). So, it gives #11 and b9. As well as 3 and b7. Of course, the point is that the tritone is the same.

But, in this case it's Dm7b5 (D F Ab C).

The Ab7 is Ab C Eb Gb. Two notes the same and two notes a half step higher. The latter are Eb and Gb which are b9 and 3 (or is somebody going to insist it's b4?). Pretty outside sounding, no? The former (referring to the notes that are the same in Ab7 and Dm7b5) are Ab and C, which aren't a tritone.

Can they be considered to "work" because of the tritone sub? Seems like a stretch to me, but I don't claim to be a theoretician or, for that matter, an outside player.

Or, have I misunderstood something?

[jzucker]

Garden variety: Ab7 (Ab C Eb Gb) would be a tritone sub for D7 (D F# A C). So, it gives #11 and b9. As well as 3 and b7. Of course, the point is that the tritone is the same.

But, in this case it's Dm7b5 (D F Ab C).

The Ab7 is Ab C Eb Gb. Two notes the same and two notes a half step higher. The latter are Eb and Gb which are b9 and 3 (or is somebody going to insist it's b4?). Pretty outside sounding, no? The former (referring to the notes that are the same in Ab7 and Dm7b5) are Ab and C, which aren't a tritone.

Can they be considered to "work" because of the tritone sub? Seems like a stretch to me, but I don't claim to be a theoretician or, for that matter, an outside player.

Or, have I misunderstood something?

Tritone is the chord movement root, not necessarily the quality. Dm7b5 is moving to G7. The 5 of G7 is D7. The tritone of D7 is Ab7. The 2 of Ab7 is Ebm7, hence the Ebm7-Ab7 movement.

The 5 of C is G7. The tritone of the G7 is Db7. The 2 of the Db7 is Abm7. Hence the Abm7-Db7 moving to C.

The other variations of any of the 7th chords are them moving in Minor 3rds and then their associated 2 chords. (assuming G7 here) is Dm7 G7, Fm7 Bb7, Abm7-Db7, Bm7-E7

The other question which was asked about on this thread was B7 D7 F7 Ab7 on Cmaj7. You can hear the roots of that in swing music with people temporarily using Cdim7 resolving up to Cmaj7. Then bird used it, sometimes even over the 5 chord. Lots of jazz musicians have used this sound over the years. If you listen to Abercrombie's Arcade album he is using this as a part of the tune's harmony as well as the concepts I call dodecaphonics all over the place. I learned this formally from Marc Copeland who learned it from Herbie Hancock and Micheal Brecker. On several records, herbie uses a Gmaj7#5 over the G7 chord leading to a C...

That chord is essentially the B7.

It was also part of my studies with Martino, Sandole and later with a baltimore guitarist named Larry Wooldridge who famously said to me, "Do you have the b@lls to play F# over a G7 chord" and then proceed to demonstrate how it worked.

We all get so focused on the theory behind all this stuff but at the end of the day, it's just sound. Rules are not for formulating music. They are for explaining what someone has composed or improvised. The dodecaphonic concepts sound complicated but it's really pretty simple, as is jazz theory.

[pamosmusic]

The other question which was asked about on this thread was B7 D7 F7 Ab7 on Cmaj7. You can hear the roots of that in swing music with people temporarily using Cdim7 resolving up to Cmaj7. Then bird used it, sometimes even over the 5 chord. Lots of jazz musicians have used this sound over the years. If you listen to Abercrombie's Arcade album he is using this as a part of the tune's harmony as well as the concepts I call dodecaphonics all over the place. I learned this formally from Marc Copeland who learned it from Herbie Hancock and Micheal Brecker. On several records, herbie uses a Gmaj7#5 over the G7 chord leading to a C...

That chord is essentially the B7.

Ah okay that makes sense. I was working on If I Loved You earlier and that does the C to Cdim move right up top. I think that’s the root of the Bm-E7 the real book puts in bar to of I Remember You also? F to Fdim(maj7) or something.

And that makes sense about Herbie … I’ve seen some unusual moves in his playing but I think just never sorted them this way with all these interesting implications — just tried to make them make sense as one to one subs.

Cool.

[Tal_175]

The Ab7 is Ab C Eb Gb. Two notes the same and two notes a half step higher. The latter are Eb and Gb which are b9 and 3 (or is somebody going to insist it's b4?). Pretty outside sounding, no? The former (referring to the notes that are the same in Ab7 and Dm7b5) are Ab and C, which aren't a tritone.

But these tensions are resolving to G7. In jazz, I feel, we are given licence to certain devices because we heard them so many times.
- A diatonic chord becoming a dominant and functioning as a secondary dominant.
- A dominant chord becoming a ii-V
- Subing a dominant for it's tritone.

You can always intermingle these devices with good results. That's what I meant by garden variety tritone sub. Dm7b5 G7 becomes D7 G7 which becomes Ab7 G7 which becomes Eb7 Ab7 G7 etc etc.
In fact, you can play that even if you only had two bars of G7.

[Mick-7]

"On several records, herbie uses a Gmaj7#5 over the G7 chord leading to a C... That chord is essentially the B7."

Makes sense because Em7 is a rootless CM9, and B7 is its V7 chord.

It's also based on the old augmented scale chord concept:

C augmented scale = G-A#-B-D-D#-F#-G (#2nd/3rd/5th/#5th/#7)

Chords: G-B-D# > A#-D#-F# >B-D#-G >D-F#-A# >D#-G-B >F#-A#-D

[pamosmusic]

Garden variety: Ab7 (Ab C Eb Gb) would be a tritone sub for D7 (D F# A C). So, it gives #11 and b9. As well as 3 and b7. Of course, the point is that the tritone is the same.

But, in this case it's Dm7b5 (D F Ab C).

The Ab7 is Ab C Eb Gb. Two notes the same and two notes a half step higher. The latter are Eb and Gb which are b9 and 3 (or is somebody going to insist it's b4?). Pretty outside sounding, no? The former (referring to the notes that are the same in Ab7 and Dm7b5) are Ab and C, which aren't a tritone.

Can they be considered to "work" because of the tritone sub? Seems like a stretch to me, but I don't claim to be a theoretician or, for that matter, an outside player.

Or, have I misunderstood something?

Theory says tritone sub.

The interesting thing is that the out stuff is hidden in chords that are a theoretical stretch against the underlying harmony, but make perfect sense next to each other — just ii-Vs — so all the bebop vocabulary sits right in there.

So those out harmonies don’t register as out so much when the line is melodically strong.

I think on another thread you said something along the lines of “a good outside line is an inside line over a different chord.” And this is that … it’s good vocabulary that takes a windy way to the destination.

[rpjazzguitar]

Dm7b5 G7 becomes D7 G7 .

So D F Ab C "becomes" D F# A C?

Anything can work, but sometimes it takes a particularly strong line. Otherwise, this juxtaposition might create clams.

[Christian Miller]

Thinking only in vertical terms can really be a problem


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[pamosmusic]

Thinking only in vertical terms can really be a problem


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Wisdom

[pamosmusic]

The other question which was asked about on this thread was B7 D7 F7 Ab7 on Cmaj7. You can hear the roots of that in swing music with people temporarily using Cdim7 resolving up to Cmaj7. Then bird used it, sometimes even over the 5 chord. Lots of jazz musicians have used this sound over the years. If you listen to Abercrombie's Arcade album he is using this as a part of the tune's harmony as well as the concepts I call dodecaphonics all over the place. I learned this formally from Marc Copeland who learned it from Herbie Hancock and Micheal Brecker. On several records, herbie uses a Gmaj7#5 over the G7 chord leading to a C...

That chord is essentially the B7..

Also I guess worth mentioning that what you’re describing here is a movement away from C, so that whole collection of dominants and related chords would be workable subs for G7 too.

That change pops up a lot … Like Someone In Love in m5, Someday My Prince in m2, It Could Happen To You or Slow Boat to China in m4, etc.

This stuff is so fun.

(no, I haven’t been pondering that chord change for the last twelve hours, why do you ask?)

[Mick-7]

There are many possibilities.... Someday my prince will come, like someone in love, on a slow boat to China. It could happen to you?

Without specific examples, these theoretical discussions are next to useless.

We could have : G7-F#m7-B7/Em7 (for CM7), C7-B7-Bb7/Am7 (=C6) - etc., altered chords or not.

Herbie subbed a GM7#5 at some point for a G7 chord. So What? What am I supposed to do with that information? Without a specific example, I am left feeling Kind of Blue.

[pamosmusic]

There are many possibilities.... Someday my prince will come, like someone in love, on a slow boat to China. It could happen to you?

Without specific examples, these theoretical discussions are next to useless.

Buddy, I put measure numbers. They’re tunes that contain that change—specific examples of a dominant chord resolving up a half step to major.

Sunny Side of the Street is another, m2.
Bewitched, m3.

Perhaps you can tell me what else you’d be looking for in this instance, other than Miles Davis puns?

[Mick-7]

Buddy, I put measure numbers. They’re tunes that contain that change—specific examples of a dominant chord resolving up a half step to major.
Sunny Side of the Street is another, m2.
Bewitched, m3.

Oh, my statement was a general one, not directed at you, as in the example I gave: So&So substituted this chord for that one, these changes for those. Without specific examples, such comments are not helpful. And I'd have to reference those tunes, to even get your point - is it about chord substitutions?

P.S. - In the case of "Like Someone in Love," they are chord subs, "Someday My Prince..." is using the augmented chord trick, D7+/EbM7, not sure about the others.

[Christian Miller]

There are many possibilities.... Someday my prince will come, like someone in love, on a slow boat to China. It could happen to you?

Without specific examples, these theoretical discussions are next to useless.

We could have : G7-F#m7-B7/Em7 (for CM7), C7-B7-Bb7/Am7 (=C6) - etc., altered chords or not.

Herbie subbed a GM7#5 at some point for a G7 chord. So What? What am I supposed to do with that information? Without a specific example, I am left feeling Kind of Blue.

B/G to Cmaj7 is big and clever, that’s what


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[pamosmusic]

Oh, my statement was a general one, not directed at you, as in the example I gave: So&So substituted this chord for that one, these changes for those. Without specific examples, such comments are not helpful. And I'd have to reference those tunes, to even get your point - is it about chord substitutions?

P.S. - In the case of "Like Someone in Love," they are chord subs, "Someday My Prince..." is using the augmented chord trick, D7+/EbM7, not sure about the others.

The others most likely an offshoot of the biiio7 chord.

And it looks like you referenced the tunes, and thereby got the point.