Video: How to SMOOTHLY play diminished chords

[rpjazzguitar]

I was never confused about those symbols before.

[wolflen]

To sum up: Here we have a "Real" book with 4 different symbols for the same or similar chord, 0, 0/ (line through 0, half-dim) , 0/7 (half-dim 7), and m7b5. I think anyone has the right to be confused by that!

and..don't forget it could also be:

mi7b5..mi6..Dom9 (no root)..Alt Dom#5b9

and if you want to get way out there..use some Ben Monder/Ted Green thinking

the half dim symbol is good..if you know which half is diminished !

[Christian Miller]

I was never confused about those symbols before.

Whereas now…..


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[buduranus2]

We have an expression down here in the South: "Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then." Such is (apparently) the case here. I made the unfortunate mistake of listening with my ears instead of my eyes. But, in a roundabout and slightly convoluted way I believe I've proved my point(s.)

As we are well aware, the Real Book is hardly an authoritative source. It often/typically has the substitutions written in, obscuring the original structure. In this regard, there's no more reliable source than Ralph Patt's Vanilla Book (Index) So here we see unambiguously that the composer's intent was as I had mentioned in my previous post. Specifically, to use diminished chords to maintain an ascending chromatic bass line.

The Real Book example I posted in error actually "exonerates" me to at least a limited extent. Let's look at the Ebmaj7 Gø move. As I hear the song (and as corroborated by Ralph Patt) the song goes from Ebmaj7 to Edim. If we look at Gø as Bbmi6 (three in one chord) the only difference is the F in Bbmi6 vs the E in Edim. So the Berklee student writing the chart heard it wrong, and the one-note difference completely changes the composer's intent.

As for how many phrygian dominant licks I know, I'd say not too many but enough to get 'er done. Appreciate the replies and perspectives!

[Christian Miller]

(People also play different changes on tunes.)


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[Mick-7]

The only bar in Patt's chart I'd quibble with is bar 9, the IIm7 chord (Bbm7) is commonly played rather than the IV chord (although Bbm7 = DbM6), similar to the F7b9 (A dim) to Bbm7 in bars 2 to 3.

I find it it easier to think of (remember) the dim.7 chords as 7b9 chords, might feel differently if I was a bass player.

But after all that talk about half-dim/m7b5 chords, they are nowhere to be seen! Apparently the Real Book chart guy feels that a 7b9 chord should always have a m7b5 chaperone, God only knows what sort of trouble they'ed get into on their own!

[pamosmusic]

(People also play different changes on tunes.)


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Yeah this is the one I brought to Brad Shepik where he was like lol that A section is wrong.

He played the ii-Vs in bars 2 and 4.

[Christian Miller]

Idk if you listen to the Miles version, Paul Chambers is quite clearly playing the ascending bass ala the Patt chart while Red seems to playing dominants and ii Vs. Best of both worlds?

Also they play V7 at bar 9

Of course Miles always got the changes wrong, so…


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[Christian Miller]

Otoh Bud plays the changes in that real book chart buduranus posted pretty much… unsurprisingly, Barry’s reading takes Bud’s as a basis, but adds some more harmonic subs.


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[Christian Miller]

Anyway the relationship between ii V and a leading tone dim chords is pretty obvious. Where it’s less obvious imo is with bIIIo7 and #IVo7

This is where a lot of the non functioning ii V’s in real book era charts come from.


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[MarkRhodes]

Attachment 110222

I have no objection to the posting of this lead sheet, but it is my understanding that it violates copyright law to do so. I remember some years ago such postings got the site in a bit of trouble. Perhaps things have since changed.

[MarkRhodes]

Good video, Christian.
"Today I'd like to talk about..." is a great introductory line. Never change it!

I learned about diminished chords from Carol Kaye. She takes a simple approach: any diminished chord = the 7b9 chord a half-step below it and repeats every 3 frets. Thus G7 = Abo Bo Do and Fo (Here "o" serves as the unelevated symbol for a diminished chord.) It runs both ways: you can use diminished patterns over dominant chords and dominant patterns over diminished chords.


The up three frets rule is interesting. It applies elsewhere, such as in the difference between pentatonic major and minor. Also in songs that go from I major to i minor. (Play the same line up 3 frets and it works. Not only does it work; this was common practice.) Perhaps a thread on the 3-fret rule is in order.

[MarkRhodes]

Perhaps a relevant example of the various functions of diminished chords is It Could Happen to You. Sometimes the diminished chord is a 7b9 and (as Freud might've said) sometimes a diminished chord is just a diminished chord. Regardless, I appreciate your videos and thanks for the opportunity to express my perspectives.

Attachment 110222

I was checking on something at Carol Kaye's site to make sure I remembered it right. Turns out when talking about diminished chords in one of her Tips, she uses this very example.

>>>>>Forinstance, in the tune, "It Could Happen To You", the 2ndchord in the key of F, is F#o but solo-wise you think of D7 whichthen resolves to the next chord (cycically) Gm7, but it's common forthe F#o (same as Ebo which is the same as D7b9, hence the D7 chordfor soloing) which dictates the movement of the bass note going fromF to F# to G etc. The next chord change being Abo which is E7b9solo-wise. E7b9 which is also the same as Fo, Bo, and Do, thenresolves to Am moving up to Cm7 to F7b9 to Bb -- typical cyclemovements in tunes.
CarolKaye USA
Submittedat: 21:58 on Saturday, June 6, 1998<<<<

Note that most of Carol's tips are directed to bass players, but as she started out (in the studio) on guitar and has taught many students on guitar, she provides tips for guitarists as well. Many apply to both instruments.

[Christian Miller]

Good video, Christian.
"Today I'd like to talk about..." is a great introductory line. Never change it!

I learned about diminished chords from Carol Kaye. She takes a simple approach: any diminished chord = the 7b9 chord a half-step below it and repeats every 3 frets. Thus G7 = Abo Bo Do and Fo (Here "o" serves as the unelevated symbol for a diminished chord.) It runs both ways: you can use diminished patterns over dominant chords and dominant patterns over diminished chords.


The up three frets rule is interesting. It applies elsewhere, such as in the difference between pentatonic major and minor. Also in songs that go from I major to i minor. (Play the same line up 3 frets and it works. Not only does it work; this was common practice.) Perhaps a thread on the 3-fret rule is in order.

In Barry Harris land this is called brothers and sisters.

Transposing the same idea up three frets is a time honoured approach is a time honoured approach to playing II V Is. For example

Dm7b5 Fm7b5 —&gt; Cm etc


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[Mick-7]

"For instance, in the tune, "It Could Happen To You", the 2nd chord in the key of F, is F#o but solo-wise you think of D7 which then resolves to the next chord (cyclically) Gm7, but it's common for the F#o (same as Ebo which is the same as D7b9, hence the D7 chord for soloing) which dictates the movement of the bass note going from F to F# to G etc.

The next chord change being Abo which is E7b9 solo-wise. E7b9 which is also the same as Fo, Bo, and Do, then resolves to Am moving up to Cm7 to F7b9 to Bb -- typical cycle movements in tunes.

The changes given in the sentence I've italicized are quite different than either of the charts posted. They both have M7 chords (FM7 & BbM7) in the 5th and 6th bars. Am7 (bar 4) is the upper structure of FM7, but a Cm7 (rather than BbM7) in the 6th bar wouldn't make sense because it proceeds to A7 (Patt, usually altered) or Am7b5 (Real Book), and then to D7 - ??

[Sam b]

Nice video - Christian, you mention that Barry Harris had a similar approach to minor 2-5s.
If it's not complicated to explain, can you please?
Thanks!

[Christian Miller]

Nice video - Christian, you mention that Barry Harris had a similar approach to minor 2-5s.
If it's not complicated to explain, can you please?
Thanks!

Sure, take Bm7b5 E7

You relate Bm7b5 to G7 and run the G7 scale down to the third of E7 - G#

eg
F E D C B A G#

(Which is the A harmonic minor scale, but also I don’t care)

This allows you to play all your G7 stuff on the ii V. It’s up to you if you put in the G#.


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[Sam b]

Thanks!

[pingu]

bit late but …..

Thanks Christian that video
is super super helpful to me

I could never make diminished scale
stuff work for me

and it’s sooo simple to use

fab

[Christian Miller]

You’re welcome!


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