Improvising over 4+ bars of static chords

[CaptainLemming]

Rhetorical question, not aimed at you at all. Sorry, should have made that clear. Response to another post, not yours. I'm trying to help you!

Ah, ok. I'm sorry too. Such great people on this forum, I should know better. And thanks for your help!

[equenda]

Hi!
For me the most "difficult" chord is the Maj7/Maj9 or Maj 6/9.
I don't have problem to improvise on minor chords or dominant chord (functioning or non-functioning) for several bars.
But if I find a Maj7 chord for 4 or more bars I'm a little in troubles.

The Major chord is very consonant and as we know you have to be very careful with the altered notes (#5, b5, #9, b9).
In other words when you improvise on minor and dominan chords you have a lot of choices (dozens of scales and arpeggios).....but on Major harmony is easy to play some.....wrong notes

Anyway is pretty unusual to find a standard song with a section of many major chords....


Ettore

https://www.youtube.com/@quendamusic

[Paulie2]

Some ideas to try and work through on static chords:

- Sequencing: Take a simple idea, as basic as something like two quarter notes or eighth notes, and work on moving that around and developing it

- Melody: Reference the tunes melody and change it for your solo

- Imply other chords: If you are on G major for 8 bars there is no reason you cannot put in a Am7 to D7 over it and outline those chords. Or a Am7b5 to D7 alt to G, an Ab7 to G, etc. For example you could play the first bars of I'll Remember April as:

GMaj / Am7 - D7 / GMaj / Am7b5 - D7Alt // Gm6 / Am7b5 - Ab7 / Gm6

or simplify to just:

GMaj / Not GMaj (meaning anything like a D7, Ab7, or playing out) / GMaj / Not GMaj / Gm6

Also these ideas can carry over the barline which can sound better than a strict 4 beats only for each sound.

- Lydian tonic: imply G Lydian instead over 8 bars with a F# minor pentatonic for a whole different sound

- Diatonic chords: Any other triad or 7th chord from G major brings out other colors. Triad pairs work great for this.

- Upper extensions: Instead of thinking G Major think Em7 or Bm7. Instead of thinking Gm6 for 8 bars think a BbMaj7 or Em7b5 for more color

- Enclosures: You can then do enclosures and chromatic passing notes for any of these upper colors

- Play the Blues: Almost never a wrong answer

[Mick-7]

For me the most "difficult" chord is the Maj7/Maj9 or Maj 6/9. I don't have problem to improvise on minor chords or dominant chord (functioning or non-functioning) for several bars. But if I find a Maj7 chord for 4 or more bars I'm a little in trouble.

Shouldn't matter then, since minor chords are just the upper structure of major chords, e.g., Am7 is a rootless FM9 (A-C-E-G) , D7sus = FM6/9 (A-C-D-G), etc.

You can use the same scale notes for all of them: Major, Lydian, Harmonic & Melodic Minor.

[pauln]

In a categorical syllogism, if all three statements are not presented it is not considered logically valid (because the incomplete form denies the testing of distribution of the pairs of major and minor premises about the middle term). In logic, the syllogism's form is critical to the validity of the argument.

However, as Aristotle noted observing rhetorical speakers, the most applause occurred when the speakers' arguments omitted one of the required statements (because the one left out was widely well known, easy to infer or figure out, or common knowledge). These arguments (called enthymemes) were more effective than those in the complete valid form when presented to the public.

Something like this happens in Jazz, where the "complete and comprehensive rendering" of something would not be as well received as when some aspects are left out to be "found and filled" by the engagement of people's ears and minds.

[CaptainLemming]

In a categorical syllogism, if all three statements are not presented it is not considered logically valid (because the incomplete form denies the testing of distribution of the pairs of major and minor premises about the middle term). In logic, the syllogism's form is critical to the validity of the argument.

However, as Aristotle noted observing rhetorical speakers, the most applause occurred when the speakers' arguments omitted one of the required statements (because the one left out was widely well known, easy to infer or figure out, or common knowledge). These arguments (called enthymemes) were more effective than those in the complete valid form when presented to the public.

Something like this happens in Jazz, where the "complete and comprehensive rendering" of something would not be as well received as when some aspects are left out to be "found and filled" by the engagement of people's ears and minds.

To wit: wit?

[Reg]

Hey Cap. Lem

The 1st 8 bars are generally a slow Harmonic rhythm... right, even played as a latin or brazilian slow feel or pulse.Then the next 8 bars the harmonic rhythm or feel and pulse moves, sometimes in a swing feel.

So for the 1st 8 bars there are two standard montunos that imply the changes for both the Gma7 to Gmaj6 and the Gmin7 to G-6 . They both use one of the two different notes between the two chords B and Bb and F# and F

With Gmaj the standard montuno

X X 4 4 3 X
X X 2 4 3 X

with Gmin

X X 3 3 3 X
X X 2 3 3 X

the other montuno uses Diatonic subs

For Gmaj use Bmin. (Phrygian)

X X 9 7 7 X
X X 7 7 7 X

and for Gmin. use Bbmaj (Lydian)

X X 8 7 6 X
X X 7 7 6 X

The Montunos will help your ears be able to hear different Tonal references for developing improv.

In this case the simple Diatonic subs. This opens up the doors for Relative and Parallel types of harmonic relationships and also Modal relationships.

Personally I use these types of harmonic Tools as like Plug and Play ... they help set up different types of licks and feels... they become the bridge for the connection.

[Reg]

You need to watch using Parallel chord and different functional chord references....

Even just using Gma7#11 going to Gmin9, and sneaking in the related V7 chord of G-9, C9#11. It can get muddy and upside down real quick with out have rhythmic organization.

And trying to use standard Chord Patterns .... like Gma7 A-7 D7 Gma7 A-7b5 D7alt and then with subs ... I love these patterns and use them all the time... but I'll Remember April 1st 8 bars is pretty modal and using Functional Chord patterns is a stretch.

[Jimmy Smith]

I need a strategy, maybe an outline or idea, to make what I'm doing more interesting. One foot on the gas pedal the other on the brake is how it currently sounds to me.

Sequence or call and response. Let me know if you want me to demonstrate it in a video.

What rag and Reg said. It's not that complex of an issue and it's not the chord's fault. I understand the difficulty because in jazz you're used to the chord progression helping with development and when you get to just 1 chord, you can be at a loss. However, this is a weakness that needs to be overcome. Playing something good over 1 chord shouldn't be that much of a challenge. How do you think rock and other popular music guys develop their solos when soloing modally just over the key center? You have to practice soloing over 1 chord. The good news is that there are simple devices, if you don't disregard them, that make it way easier to get into it with only 1 chord. Try sequencing or call and response.

[ragman1]

What I don't understand is why it's become such an issue. Just play something. In any case, what about the rest of the tune?

[Jimmy Smith]

^ I get it. It can be a challenge because in jazz you're used to the chord progression helping you with developing your solo, so with 1 chord, you don't have that. Playing something good over 1 chord is still less of a challenge than soloing over changes tho. So you should be able to get your act together if you practice doing it and understand a few methods for approaching it.

[Christian Miller]

I would probably end up playing F#/G aka Gmaj7#9 aka ‘the nasty chord’ at some point.

If you gotta have a scale that’s mode 6 of harmonic minor. (B harmonic minor).

I’ll probably grow out of it.

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[Christian Miller]

Perhaps more relevantly, spend some proper time with the major scale. It’s what we use 80% of the time.

Also you can always superimpose a turnaround if you like.

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[Reg]

You can always go to school at Emmets

[pamosmusic]

You can always go to school at Emmets

Now you’re talking.

[ragman1]

^ I get it. It can be a challenge because in jazz you're used to the chord progression helping you with developing your solo, so with 1 chord, you don't have that. Playing something good over 1 chord is still less of a challenge than soloing over changes tho. So you should be able to get your act together if you practice doing it and understand a few methods for approaching it.

Exactly.

I think if you can play the rest of the song, doing the G - Gm wouldn't be a problem. But if you're going to get hung up on the first few bars you've had it!

So leave that bit and do the rest first. Then, when you get back to the beginning, it'll come naturally.