Learning to Solo over Jazz Changes [QUESTION]

[garybaldy]

Absolutely. With a D in it, if indeed it were possible, it would probably make the chord sound very muddy.

There is also X 10 9 10 9 11 which I use in Stella.

[ragman1]

Ah. Strangely, if you swapped the G to the D that's quite a nice chord.

10 x 9 10 9 11

Resolves neatly to a Cm9 too. 8 x 8 8 8 10

[garybaldy]

Ah. Strangely, if you swapped the G to the D that's quite a nice chord.

10 x 9 10 9 11

Resolves neatly to a Cm9 too. 8 x 8 8 8 10

Nice sound.
Another way of looking at that version is that it's the Bdim7 chord from the BH Cminor 6th dim scale with a borrowed Eb

[rpjazzguitar]

Does anyone play a D (the fifth) in a G7b9b13?

Good question for a pianist or bassist. Not commonly played on guitar, I'd think.

But, there might be a D in the bass. And, the D is heard as an overtone, faintly, of the G root.

[Mick-7]

rpjazzguitar,

Your approach seems awfully chord centric to me. Chord symbols are not commands, "C7b9b13" does not mean, "you must play these chord tones!," it merely suggests a tonality (altered).

If I want that particular sound, I'll probably play a Gb9 chord - the one that every guitar player knows: F-Bb-Eb-Ab (3rd or 8th fret)

If instead of C7b9b13, the chart says C7b9, or C7b9#5, or C7#9, etc., will you think of a different scale for each symbol?

I think that being able to find the chord tones within the scales, rather than vice versa, is more practical, at least when it comes to altered chords. There are really only a few scales one needs to know.

Here is Steve Swallows' chord/scale lexicon (used to be on his website but I don't see it now). I noticed that he has
3 different names for Melodic Minor: Lydian Flat seven, Minor Major seven, and Altered, which are all melodic minor but starting on different tones (modes of melodic minor?)

[rpjazzguitar]

[QUOTE=Mick-7;1325086]rpjazzguitar,

Your approach seems awfully chord centric to me. Chord symbols are not commands, "C7b9b13" does not mean, "you must play these chord tones!," it merely suggests a tonality (altered).

If I want that particular sound, I'll probably play a Gb9 chord - the one that every guitar player knows: F-Bb-Eb-Ab (3rd or 8th fret)

If instead of C7b9b13, the chart says C7b9, or C7b9#5, or C7#9, etc., will you think of a different scale for each symbol? quote////

Not sure where the idea that I see chord names as commands came from. I've been posting about tonal centers, melody, not-clams and using your ears, although not in this particular post.

My thought, which I guess I didn't get across, is that there isn't much difference between a chord name and a scale name. So, for the four Cdominants you listed, I'd have to think about scale names after the gig. When I see the chord name I already know the notes, because I make it a point to know the notes in the chords I use.

If, for example, I was considering C7b9b13 and C7b9#5 (practically, the same harmony), I know the notes that are in the chord. And then, depending which note(s) I add, I get different scale names. I already know the notes, so I don't see much to gain in thinking about the scale names. I also know, from time on the instrument, which additional notes may sound good and which probably won't -- in my hands, for the sounds I use.

In the practice room my approach to expanding harmonic vocab is more based on reharm than thinking about scales. Obviously, there is correspondence, but the thought processes are not identical, in my view.

[Jimmy Smith]

Good question for a pianist or bassist.

Eh hem

Not commonly played on guitar, I'd think. But, there might be a D in the bass. And, the D is heard as an overtone, faintly, of the G root.

I experiment with altered chords where the 5th is altered (or b13) and try including the natural 5th in the bass. It's a good sound to my ear. It's like dim rather than spiky. Bebop dissonance. I like that kind of stuff.

[Mick-7]

rpjazzguitar, Sorry, I may have made a mountain out of your mole-hill...

Earlier you said: "What it comes down to is that I find it easier to think of chord tones and the individual notes likely to add something positive. I find it easier than thinking about things like hungarian minor, harmonic major, dim+WT or modes of harmonic minor."

We actually agree on this, the value I got from learning relatively exotic scales like those I mentioned is that it helped me hear uncommon note combinations and play them on the guitar.

[Kirk Garrett]

Well that put the nail in the coffin.
This prospect (although I don't agree with it) is far scarier to a hopeful beginner than Phrygian dominant.

Ten years ago, he said the first 10 years are the hardest.

I think I get where this is going!

[mr. beaumont]

Ten years ago, he said the first 10 years are the hardest.

I think I get where this is going!

Exactly!

[rpjazzguitar]

rpjazzguitar, Sorry, I may have made a mountain out of your mole-hill...

Earlier you said: "What it comes down to is that I find it easier to think of chord tones and the individual notes likely to add something positive. I find it easier than thinking about things like hungarian minor, harmonic major, dim+WT or modes of harmonic minor."

We actually agree on this, the value I got from learning relatively exotic scales like those I mentioned is that it helped me hear uncommon note combinations and play them on the guitar.

If it works for a player, that's great. I haven't found learning exotic scales to actually get into my playing. New sounds get into my playing at a glacial pace, if that, with the occasional dramatic exception. When they do, it's often a lick that I've heard and seen another player do live.

At times, it's been just a note. It's been awhile but I remember finally learning what a b9 sounds like to the point where I could imagine the sound during a solo and execute it. #9 and #11 were not difficult, but I still work on b13. I don't hear side slipping well at all.

I'm also aware of tritone subs, using I iiim vim interchangeably and also iim IV V7. And some other chords subs.

Upon reflection, I think you're right that my approach is chord centric, at least in a way. If I'm thinking about a chord I tend to start with the notes, not the scale, although they're almost the same thing, give or take a note or two. But, a lot of the time I don't think about the chord that way. I try to feel it and make up a melody. I may do clam-avoidance by being aware of chord tones and consonant extensions.

For situations where there's a clear tonal center, I'm likely to be aware of that, but I still think about individual notes rather than scales. It's not a well organized system with non-overlapping approaches.

Now and then, I might think about a scale fingering I've memorized and that's often where the solo goes south.

The weakness of this approach is that it doesn't elicit a lot of harmonic complexity. I have to try to build interest and intensity in a solo with other techniques. I wouldn't necessarily recommend them to others.