Your licks are too long (Video)

[Christian Miller]

Your licks are too long!

New video today


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[pamosmusic]

Shucks I was ready to disagree with the title but unfortunately I big time agree.

All the same reasons … so much easier to transpose and sequence and play with rhythm when the line is shorter. And you can always add material to make it longer later.

Ive had a couple students get into transcribing over the last couple weeks. One is on No 1 Green Street, another on Grants On Green Dolphin Street, and a third on Oscar Peterson’s Wine and Roses.

So I’ve been having them choose one lick, preferably a measure but definitely no more than two.

If they like it, learn it and put it in a couple different fingerings and keys.

If they still think it’s cool, then apply it to different chords. Like a minor lick can go over the two chord, off the fifth or sixth of the five chord, off the third or sixth of the one chord, etc.

If they still think it’s cool, start sequencing it through scales, and then apply those other things to the tune.

If they need some structure, I tell them to start just playing it exactly over the different chords. Then start playing with the rhythm, or only using parts or segments, but not changing the notes. Then try improvising more freely but using the lick whenever they can.

So that’s fun.

[pamosmusic]

Not that you particularly needed to hear any of that

[sgosnell]

And your feets too big!

[GuyBoden]

Another excellent video, you've proved that one lick can go a long way and with taste, I always like that you sing your lines too.

[Tal_175]

Moreover I'd add that a player's vocabulary consists of their short phrases. Not just the melodic construction but their rhythmic sense, groove and articulation can all be found in these 4-5 note units and how they play them.

How they put these phrases together to build longer ideas and complete solos is their artistry which is something different than vocabulary and is much harder to formulate.

[AllanAllen]

That lick is also in Billies Bounce... and also from a head I wrote that modulates the lick.

[drbhrb]

I've always enjoyed a long lick

[MarkRhodes]

Joseph Weidlich did a lot of work on Charlie Christian's playing and coined the term TetraFragment for the 4 or 5 note clusters Charlie often worked with, "usually based on either side of a chord tone." (The Guitar Chord Shapes of Charlie Christian, page 14.)

If you add pickup notes to one side and a tag to the other, you've got a longer lick.

Herb Ellis worked this way too, using bits associated with chord shapes to create solos on the fly.

That's what I thought of while watching your video. Good stuff.

[wolflen]

Taking licks out of solos..

for me its the mystery .. how do they do it..Some Hendrix blues riffs..
his solos on "the wind cries Mary"..and Hey Joe have some very tasty licks that can be used in other tunes, improv, or just a jam.

And as your vid shows alter the rhythm and it changes the feel of the lick...Take it out of a "jazz" context
bend a note..alter a scale around it..play it a half step higher or lower..all give it new life and a fresh feel

[Navdeep_Singh]

with 5432 plus octave displacement, plus taking away beats/notes,, one can do quite a lot.

[equenda]

Great work Christian Miller.
Anyway one of my next video for my YT channell will be entitled: "Your Licks Are Too Short" .

ettore

[sgcim]

I've worked with horn players that play solos made up of just sequences. Rather than vomit in their instruments, I chose to express my boredom with the predictability of their solos by playing their lines with them on their solos.
While they're good exercises for teaching beginners (especially horn players, who can't use fretboard patterns; Phil Woods used to have his students practice them in all keys), one would hope they'd come up with more involved lines that players like Lee Konitz, Warne Marsh, Frank Strozier, John Coltrane, Art Tatum Pat martino Ta lFarlow Jimmy Raney Phil Woods etc..,played.
Even melodies like Donna Lee and Freedom Jazz Dance consist of lines that have more than five notes in them.

[Tal_175]

I've worked with horn players that play solos made up of just sequences. Rather than vomit in their instruments, I chose to express my boredom with the predictability of their solos by playing their lines with them on their solos.
While they're good exercises for teaching beginners (especially horn players, who can't use fretboard patterns; Phil Woods used to have his students practice them in all keys), one would hope they'd come up with more involved lines that players like Lee Konitz, Warne Marsh, Frank Strozier, John Coltrane, Art Tatum Pat martino Ta lFarlow Jimmy Raney Phil Woods etc..,played.
Even melodies like Donna Lee and Freedom Jazz Dance consist of lines that have more than five notes in them.

I don't think Christian is talking about sequencing short phrases here but rather mixing and matching them.
Since you mentioned Donna Lee, you can actually break it down into many reusable short bebop style phrases (trills, octave displaced arpeggios, scale patterns with chromatic passing notes etc.).

[sgcim]

I don't think Christian is talking about sequencing short phrases here but rather mixing and matching them.
Since you mentioned Donna Lee, you can actually break it down into many reusable short bebop style phrases (trills, octave displaced arpeggios, scale patterns with chromatic passing notes etc.).

Trills octave displaced arps and scale patterns with chromatic passing notes are still notes.
The first line has nine notes till it hits the A natural. The next line has 8 notes etc... The 4th 'lick, ten. The 'second ending has 16 notes, and so on.
In FJD the first lick is 15 notes long, the second lick is twelve notes, the fourth lick is 16 notes.
If you want to get Schenkerian with it, you can break everything down to two notes, the dominant and tonic.

[Tal_175]

The first line has nine notes till it hits the A natural. The next line has 8 notes etc... The 4th 'lick, ten. The 'second ending has 16 notes, and so on.
In FJD the first lick is 15 notes long, the second lick is twelve notes, the fourth lick is 16 notes.
If you want to get Schenkerian with it, you can break everything down to two notes, the dominant and tonic.

Yes, limiting to only 5 notes can be overly restrictive but the general idea is breaking longer lines down into smaller, reusable building blocks (often as little as 3-5 notes) instead of (for example) memorizing 2-4 bar long ii-V-I licks.

[pamosmusic]

Trills octave displaced arps and scale patterns with chromatic passing notes are still notes.
The first line has nine notes till it hits the A natural. The next line has 8 notes etc... The 4th 'lick, ten. The 'second ending has 16 notes, and so on.
In FJD the first lick is 15 notes long, the second lick is twelve notes, the fourth lick is 16 notes.
If you want to get Schenkerian with it, you can break everything down to two notes, the dominant and tonic.

Isnt stopping the “first line” at the A kind of arbitrary anyway? If you’re thinking about a natural end point to the phrase … or space … then it would end at the beginning of bar four.

So if you’re going to chop it up into pieces, then I’m not sure why there’s anything wrong with chopping it into smaller pieces.

Very useful to learn entire phrases, but unless you plan to play those phrases rote over only very similar chunks of chord progressions, then you’d need to break them down into component parts to incorporate them into your own vocabulary. Or maybe not?

[Mick-7]

Alternative view: I attended a few workshops by Joe Pass, and he advised that one practice playing straight 8th notes over the chord changes at a slow speed, to develop the ability to respond to the changes in real time and play flowing lines. I never heard him recommend learning and playing licks.

[pamosmusic]

Alternative view: I attended a few workshops by Joe Pass, and he advised that one practice playing straight 8th notes over the chord changes at a slow speed, to develop the ability to respond to the changes in real time and play flowing lines. I never heard him recommend learning and playing licks.

He did make those books of etudes though ...

[sgcim]

Okay chop it down to five notes, but then you've got what is obviously an F7 lick for 13 notes, even running over the Bb7 of the next measure with a Gb which was probably meant to be the b9 of the F7, but is now the #5 of the Bb7. Who would play a Gb Ab Gb F Eb idea over a Bb7? The arpeggiated Bb9 chord in the next two beats going to the G and F of the next measure is obviously meant as the end of that lick, but then you've got a huge 14 note Bbm7 idea starting with two non-harmonic surrounding notes of the 11th of the Bbm7, or are the next two notes two more surrounding notes of the F the fifth in the Bbm7?

The point is, in real life, trying to simplify things down to these little rules that Barry Harris or whomever comes up with, results in arguments like these, which is time better spent coming up with your own ideas.
Jazz improvisation takes place on a much more intuitive level than this type of thought.
Do you think Tal Farlow or Lee Konitz came up with the lines that they played from following these rules?
Barry Harris never even played with Bird, because he didn't even come to NY till 1960, and Bird was dead for five years. He just copied Bud Powell and Stitt's records, and stayed in Detroit, lecturing to whoever would listen to him about Bird, when all the time it was Bud Powell that was his main influence.

This 'theorization' of jazz has made it into a dull, lifeless music that I can understand people ignoring.
Charlie Parker electrified some older musicians I know who saw him live, and he didn't need to follow the sacred word of barry harris to know what and how to play. But then again, George benson tells us that Charlie Parker destroyed jazz (in his autobiography), but have no fear, George tells us that he's going to resurrect jazz with his BS minor 3rd ideas which sound like garbage.
I've gotta get back to a big band chart that's going nowhere on MuseScore.

[pamosmusic]

Okay chop it down to five notes, but then you've got what is obviously an F7 lick for 13 notes, even running over the Bb7 of the next measure with a Gb which was probably meant to be the b9 of the F7, but is now the #5 of the Bb7. Who would play a Gb Ab Gb F Eb idea over a Bb7? The arpeggiated Bb9 chord in the next two beats going to the G and F of the next measure is obviously meant as the end of that lick, but then you've got a huge 14 note Bbm7 idea starting with two non-harmonic surrounding notes of the 11th of the Bbm7, or are the next two notes two more surrounding notes of the F the fifth in the Bbm7?

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about here.

You can easily take small pieces out of Donna Lee and apply them all over the place. I love the line starting on beat four of measure four, enclosing the Eb and then going up the Bbmin. Is there some reason I'm not allowed to take that piece out and use it? And enclose the fourth of an Abmaj and then run up that arpeggio to see if it works? And then try sequencing it through a scale to see if it works and running the same lick up a bunch of other chords?

Christian isn't talking about taking a single lick and beating it to death over chords where it doesn't make sense. If I'm not misunderstanding him heinously, he's talking about taking small bites from lines because it's easier to take *the concepts* from them and apply them in other situations.

The point is, in real life, trying to simplify things down to these little rules that Barry Harris or whomever comes up with, results in arguments like these, which is time better spent coming up with your own ideas.
Jazz improvisation takes place on a much more intuitive level than this type of thought.
Do you think Tal Farlow or Lee Konitz came up with the lines that they played from following these rules?
Barry Harris never even played with Bird, because he didn't even come to NY till 1960, and Bird was dead for five years. He just copied Bud Powell and Stitt's records, and stayed in Detroit, lecturing to whoever would listen to him about Bird, when all the time it was Bud Powell that was his main influence.

I'm not really sure why any of this is here. Are there rules to taking lines apart that I missed?

(notwithstanding the clickbait title of the video)

This 'theorization' of jazz has made it into a dull, lifeless music that I can understand people ignoring.
Charlie Parker electrified some older musicians I know who saw him live, and he didn't need to follow the sacred word of barry harris to know what and how to play. But then again, George benson tells us that Charlie Parker destroyed jazz (in his autobiography), but have no fear, George tells us that he's going to resurrect jazz with his BS minor 3rd ideas which sound like garbage.
I've gotta get back to a big band chart that's going nowhere on MuseScore.

All the best I guess?

[Mick-7]

He did make those books of etudes though ...

I didn't mean to sound so rigid in my previous post.... Joe Pass didn't say he was against learning licks, you kind of have to do that in the beginning, but eventually you'll have to think/hear in terms of tonal centers rather than isolated chord changes, or your playing could end up sounding mechanical. So licks are fine as long as they're not your only tactic for learning to improvise.

[sgcim]

i honestly have no idea what you're talking about here.

You can easily take small pieces out of donna lee and apply them all over the place. I love the line starting on beat four of measure four, enclosing the eb and then going up the bbmin. Is there some reason i'm not allowed to take that piece out and use it? And enclose the fourth of an abmaj and then run up that arpeggio to see if it works? And then try sequencing it through a scale to see if it works and running the same lick up a bunch of other chords?

Christian isn't talking about taking a single lick and beating it to death over chords where it doesn't make sense. If i'm not misunderstanding him heinously, he's talking about taking small bites from lines because it's easier to take *the concepts* from them and apply them in other situations.



I'm not really sure why any of this is here. Are there rules to taking lines apart that i missed?

(notwithstanding the clickbait title of the video)



all the best i guess?

lol!
I guess Pat said it better than I could:

[Christian Miller]

Great work Christian Miller.
Anyway one of my next video for my YT channell will be entitled: "Your Licks Are Too Short" .

ettore

I might do one called that. Consistency is for the small minded!


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[Christian Miller]

Ooh commentary! A lot here, will sift through.

Poi - Barry said that he played with Bird at Detroit dancehall briefly before a gig. He said it was the only time he played with him.


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