Where Does this Pattern Fit?

[lawson-stone]

I've been playing with the "patterns" in David Baker's "The Blues" in his Patterns for Improvisation series. And I'm stuck on #5. It is supposed to be played over a C7 chord in a jazz-blues context. It's not hard to play but for the life of me, I cannot "hear" how it fits in the blues over a C7.

Here's the pattern:


And here's a short clip of me playing it, with varying types of picking and slurring. I would love to hear your thoughts and even played examples of how this is supposed to fit with a C7 chord.

[pauln]

What's the context - key and progression?

[mr. beaumont]

C blues or over the C7 in an F blues?

[Jimmy Smith]

Just sounds like a kind of lame out riff. I wouldn't worry too much about it. Out stuff is used in jazz blues, but you have to figure out what flavors work for you. If you don't like it, I would say move on. Also, books aren't 100% reliable.

[pamosmusic]

For what it's worth, I can't think of a sequence for learning something where I'd have that bad boy come out at the fifth thing someone would work on.

But Mr. B's idea seems good ... feels more like an altered lick for the C7 in an F blues than something to play in the first four of a C blues.

[pauln]

"Oh, I now have a revolutionary new method called the Think System, where you don't
bother with notes. My boy, someday reading music is going to be absolutely obsolete."
Prof. Harold Hill, 1912

[rpjazzguitar]

Looks to me like a chord change. First bar might go over C7. Second bar looks like it might go over Bb7. Both look like the idea is to create a diminished sound. So, bars 9 and 10 over an F blues?

[tkenji92]

I think in theory it goes with D7 (first bar) and G7 (second bar), its using the dominant diminished scale. So bars 9 and 10 as someone mentioned, but over a C blues

[Tal_175]

Here is my take on it. Let's start with the second bar:
The first two beats (of the second bar) create tension that resolves to the last two beats.
It's like Db7#11 -> C7 (or G7alt going to C7)

Now the first bar.
The first bar is C minor blues during the first three beats and D7 on the 4th beat resolving to Db7 (Or G7alt) in the second bar.

So if you try to hear the 4th beat of the first bar as tension that takes you to the second bar and first two beats of the second bar as tension to that leads to the last two beats, your phrasing will adapt to it.

[Tal_175]

So the implied changes are:

| C7 C7 C7 D7#11 | G7alt G7alt C7 C7|

In the beginning C minor blues is played over C7.

[lawson-stone]

OK let's start with the second bar.
It's easy to hear that the first two beats (of the second bar) create tension that resolves to the last two beats.
It's like Db7#11 -> C7 (or G7alt going to C7)

Now the first bar.
The first bar is C minor blues during the first three beats and D7 on the 4th beat resolving to Db7 (Or G7alt) in the second bar.

So if you try to hear the 4th beat of the first bar as tension that takes you to the second bar and first two beats of the second bar as tension to that leads to the last two beats, your phrasing will adopt to it.

Thanks that's helpful. I'd noted of course the Cm vibe, but the fingering actually kept making me feel like it was a diminished idea or whole-half scale. I actually like the sound of it, but just couldn't make it feel right over a static C7/C9/C13 chord.

[Bop Head]

[...] If you don't like it, I would say move on. [...]

+1

Why bother with something that does not resonate with(in) you?

[PMB]

As Tal_175 pointed out, the opening is a "blues scale" phrase using notes extracted from the C diminished (whole-half) that's filled out in the remainder of bar 1.

The second bar is a Coltrane-type pattern from the diminished located a semitone below.

Strangely enough, the expected altered diminished sound over a C7 (C half-whole) is the one choice not used here!

[Tal_175]

The font for the "natural" symbol could be clearer. In the second bar, the second b and the e are natural but they could be mistaken for flat. I noticed Lawson played them correctly as naturals.

[Bop Head]

The font for the "natural" symbol could be clearer. In the second bar, the second b and the e are natural but they could be mistaken for flat. I noticed Lawson played them correctly as naturals.

There seems to be a misunderstanding about the term font. This is notation handwritten by David Baker.

Before the advent of computer typesetting most music was hand-engraved.

[Tal_175]

There seems to be a misunderstanding about the term font. This is notation handwritten by David Baker.

Before the advent of computer typesetting most music was hand-engraved.

The concept of font and typesetting predates computers. They are old, printing concepts. I'm surprised that people would hand write music books after that advent of printing machines. I mean maybe as a draft but I would think there were metal typesetting for sheet music for printing. But anyway my point was to give a heads up for the partly rounded natural symbol.

[starjasmine]

As Jimmy suggested, maybe it just isn't such a great example. I tried using the YouTube speed control to play back at 2x speed and it still sounded ... well ... kinda lame... trying too hard to be cool by being 'out.' Not to say that Baker isn't great, just maybe this isn't a great lick. For me (and the OP) at least.

Here's my favorite video to steal blues licks from at the moment. There are a couple of licks that only Matteo would play, but most of it is useful idiomatic guitar blues vocabulary... which he admits is heavily influenced by Robben and Bonamassa.

[Bop Head]

The concept of font and typesetting predates computers. They are old, printing concepts. I'm surprised that people would hand write music books after that advent of printing machines. I mean maybe as a draft but I would think there were metal typesetting for sheet music for printing. But anyway my point was to give a heads up for the partly rounded natural symbol.

Music typesetting was rather complicated and was only used for simpler stuff like songbooks, hymnals or examples in music theory books and only until the beginning of the 20th century. If you watch the video I posted you see how instead punches and a lot of handwork were used with lead printing plates. Later procedures for printed music involved rub-off music symbols

and stamps

and still a lot of handwork.

[lawson-stone]

+1

Why bother with something that does not resonate with(in) you?

Because growth never happens within our comfort zone. I figure Baker knows more about jazz than I do, so maybe I'll learn something new, get some new sounds in my head. I used to dislike Pat Metheny's music. Now I love it. Used to dislike Scofield, now he's a favorite. If we do not keep growing, we start dying.

[Jimmy Smith]

Forcing yourself to like and learn a bad riff because it's in a book isn't growth. :P

[princeplanet]

As Jimmy suggested, maybe it just isn't such a great example. I tried using the YouTube speed control to play back at 2x speed and it still sounded ... well ... kinda lame... trying too hard to be cool by being 'out.' Not to say that Baker isn't great, just maybe this isn't a great lick. For me (and the OP) at least.

Here's my favorite video to steal blues licks from at the moment. There are a couple of licks that only Matteo would play, but most of it is useful idiomatic guitar blues vocabulary... which he admits is heavily influenced by Robben and Bonamassa.

This guy is just so impressive, I mean his straight Jazz playing is what makes him great, but even this rock/blues thing leaves most players in this genre in the dust... and which such unusual technique (not just the right hand) !

[Bop Head]

Forcing yourself to like and learn a bad riff because it's in a book isn't growth. :P

Well, it might be. One interesting story I heard about Aleister Crowley (whose teachings and thinking are absolutely not for me apart from this story) was that he told his students in Sicily to look for the most physically unattractive woman they could find, start a relationship with her and learn to really love her. If you manage to do that it is inner growth. But it still involves that you find something in her that resonates with(in) you.

[frabarmus]

7:56 "I don't make mistakes!"

[princeplanet]

Because growth never happens within our comfort zone. I figure Baker knows more about jazz than I do, so maybe I'll learn something new, get some new sounds in my head. I used to dislike Pat Metheny's music. Now I love it. Used to dislike Scofield, now he's a favorite. If we do not keep growing, we start dying.

I once went to the trouble of putting hundreds of Baker lines from various books into a program that turned notation into midi audio.Terrible sounds of course, but it was to save me time by quickly auditioning them before bothering to learn them. In truth, I probably liked less than one per cent of them! FWIW, it took ages to get them accurately into this conversion software, so probably didn't even save any time in the end!

Baker, along with all the other well known vocab books, just don't seem the best way to learn lines you'll really like. The best way surely is to simply transcribe lines you like from other players. It's how to cultivate your own unique style eventually, stealing a bit from here and there and mixing it all up in your own way.
Learning much of your vocab from one source seems like a bad idea to me now (although, once upon a time, I was hoping it would be the most efficient way...).
I wonder if there are any good players out there that learned nearly all their lines that they still use from a Baker book?

[GuyBoden]

I once went to the trouble of putting hundreds of Baker lines from various books into a program that turned notation into midi audio.Terrible sounds of course, but it was to save me time by quickly auditioning them before bothering to learn them. In truth, I probably liked less than one per cent of them! FWIW, it took ages to get them accurately into this conversion software, so probably didn't even save any time in the end!

Baker, along with all the other well known vocab books, just don't seem the best way to learn lines you'll really like. The best way surely is to simply transcribe lines you like from other players. It's how to cultivate your own unique style eventually, stealing a bit from here and there and mixing it all up in your own way.
Learning much of your vocab from one source seems like a bad idea to me now (although, once upon a time, I was hoping it would be the most efficient way...).
I wonder if there are any good players out there that learned nearly all their lines that they still use from a Baker book?

I find that Jazz lines from actual recordings of REAL JAZZ improv is very difficult to notate in music accurately.

So yes, as we all should know by now, copying the lines by ear from fav recordings and then remembering them is always the best method.