When you solo over a song, are you playing a chord progression or the song?

[GuyBoden]

When you solo over a song, are you playing a chord progression or the song?

Let's be honest, because most of the time I've been playing the chord progression.

It's only recently, that I've been trying to keep the song's melody in my head throughout.

[ragman1]

It depends a great deal on how well one knows the song. If the feeling of the song is infused in one then the solo will reflect that. Otherwise, as you say, one's simply covering the changes.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah depends on how well I know the song.

one thing that’s fun is to take patterns through the tune, but pull them all out of the melody itself. Like the sequence in autumn Leaves or something like that. Every good tune has really nice figures you can use to come up with cool ideas of your own.

[Reg]

yea... generally it depends on gig and players. I mean your playing with a couple horns or even just a trio.... How many times does the audience want to hear the melody. Part of developing tunes is obviously melody development, but part of melodic development is using Harmony. Developing the changes as well as the melody.

I mean what is a melody.... licks with harmonic references. Obviously not amateurs, but if they're trying to play tunes in a jazz style... Part of playing tunes is creating a Reference... the intro and the arrangement of the tunes. Then once that reference is created you can start creating new Relationships with that Reference. And you then Develop that new Relationship, which can be Melodic, Harmonic, rhythmic.... etc.
Interludes help develop relationships...

[James W]

When you solo over a song, are you playing a chord progression or the song?

Let's be honest, because most of the time I've been playing the chord progression.

It's only recently, that I've been trying to keep the song's melody in my head throughout.

Both approaches are equally valid. If done well, obvs.

[GuyBoden]

It's difficult to know every song, so playing over the changes is an easier option.

[James W]

It's difficult to know every song, so playing over the changes is an easier option.

But the changes are the song? I admit, I don't think I quite understand the distinction you're making between a song and its changes. Makes sense to me to learn both the melody and chords. Learn both. (But learning to play 'just' over the chords is not a soft option!)

[pamosmusic]

Both approaches are equally valid. If done well, obvs.

Yeah when you listen to good improvisers there’s also a lot of interplay between licks and lines—change playing w a bebop-adjacent vibe—and more motivic development.

Its worth mentioning that good melodies also tend to have a harmonic character to them, so they really do make for great motivic material for developing.

Ive been working on My Shining Hour and that first melody — mi fa so do — is a great little cell with an interesting rhythm that can easily be fit to the other chord changes, altered in various ways, and fit into other rhythmic figures.

[RLetson]

I'm no soloist, but I think I'm a pretty decent listener, and what I hear from soloists I admire generally combines playing through the changes with playing with the melody. In fact, I would characterize jazz improvisation as exploiting all the resources offered by the underlying composition--including tempo, pulse, and rhythmic patterns--to expand, explore, and exploit those resources, even to the point of recomposing them.

I mean, what else is Coleman Hawkins doing in that famous "Body and Soul" recording? (There's a similar, less adventurous take on "Star Dust.") In guitar world, there's Django's take on "I'll See You in My Dreams," where even the head gets altered as it's first stated, and then Django takes off. Nevertheless, at any point in these explorations, I know where I am in the melody/structure. And, of course, part of that is due to my familiarity with the original material.

I know that there are improvisatory solos that travel pretty far from the source material, but to my ears, the farther they get from those sources, the more demanding they are on the artistic and technical gifts of the player. Otherwise they devolve into noodling. (Which is not an absolute condition, since I know that there are listeners more perceptive than I am and better at understanding the connection between a particular musical passage and the structures from which it derives.)

[Christian Miller]

I tend to use the songs melody to keep track of the form.

No idea if this means I play the song. I have mostly practiced working on the changes tbh.

Working on the melody is something I tend to forget to do. It always generates interesting ideas.

[Christian Miller]

I mean, what else is Coleman Hawkins doing in that famous "Body and Soul" recording? (There's a similar, less adventurous take on "Star Dust.") In guitar world, there's Django's take on "I'll See You in My Dreams," where even the head gets altered as it's first stated, and then Django takes off. Nevertheless, at any point in these explorations, I know where I am in the melody/structure. And, of course, part of that is due to my familiarity with the original material.

I do sometimes wonder if Django actually knew any heads, including to his own tunes.

[GuyBoden]

So, is it just me that's been memorising chord progressions to songs, then forgetting the melody.

[Christian Miller]

So, is it just me that's been memorising chord progressions to songs, then forgetting the melody.

I mean obviously I must do that to some extent because I can play an F blues or a Bb rhythm tune without thinking of the melody.

But the melody tends to sign post my way through a tune. I don't count bars of chords.

This can be a problem if I play two tunes with similar changes, key and tempo in a row; I can forget what tune I'm playing. More common on swing dance gigs than modern jazz gigs haha.

[deacon Mark]

I guess I do both at times. Some tunes are better at using the melody for improvising than others, but I tend to use changes when I practice. I think the best at using melody and changes both was Paul Desmond. I can listen to him all day he never gets old. I love bebop but really after a hard fast session of bebop listening, I am generally cooked. Being not such a monster player, I stick to the changes to make is easier.

[rpjazzguitar]

It varies.

If the pianist has just played a great solo and I'm not really comfortable with the changes, I might start with the melody and then, after a few bars, start embellishing it, focusing a lot on the chord tones.

If, otoh, I know the tune well enough not to have to think about it, I'll play whatever comes to mind, often with no reference to the melody. Or, sometimes I'll reference the melody at the end of the solo to calm things down.

[Jimmy Smith]

I play solo so I'm not in circumstances where I'm just blowing over changes. I always try to play to the song. But realistically, the solo I play won't always be directly related to the tune. While I'm always following the changes, or playing over them somehow.

[ragman1]

Playing the song doesn't mean repeating the melody or an embellishment of the melody, it means playing the spirit of the song.

[Jimmy Smith]

Right

[AllanAllen]

Playing the song doesn't mean repeating the melody or an embellishment of the melody, it means playing the spirit of the song.

Yeah I just explained to someone, you can’t play over All Blues like it’s Stormy Monday. You have to use a lot of space and let the tune breathe. It’s a sparse introspective tune.

[mr. beaumont]

Definitely depends on the situation and how well I know the tune.

Ideally, I've played the song well enough to where I can nail every change...and then I know not to do that.

But sometimes you just gotta get through. And you can still take a good solo that way, even if its not an ideal situation.

If I know the melody, its definitely my guide, whether you hear it or not.

[st.bede]

When I was 17 and in my second semester in college, I took the jazz appreciation course. I had always been listening to some jazz, and really enjoyed Scofield and Metheny. (I was more into Hendrix, Cream, Grateful Dead, but thankfully I had transcended my Zeppelin worship salad days).

The professor said that when listening to jazz, you have to memorize the melody and be able to keep it in mind throughout the whole song. I took that as sage advice.

I am not able to blow over tunes. However, I have noticed that if I have the melody of a song in my minds eye, it is a lot easier to improvise melodic ideas. If I do not know the song, I tend to fall into ruts and preconceived musical phrases.

I know this because almost every week my friend and I randomly play through tunes out of some realbooks. At this point I have listened to a lot of jazz, so I have heard a lot of the songs/standards. There is a huge difference between: if I have never heard the song, heard it but can not fully hum the melody, or can hum the melody note for note.

There can be a certain generic quality to progressions, on the other hand, a melody is more of an individual thing. (Motives do pop up).

… none the less, I am not an expert.

[Christian Miller]

I do find improvising off the melody is an excellent way to stop myself playing ‘bebop boilerplate’ on everything.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GuyBoden]

I'm now making a big effort to learn the melodies to all the songs I thought I knew and using it as a guide for my improv solos.

[James W]

Yeah I just explained to someone, you can’t play over All Blues like it’s Stormy Monday. You have to use a lot of space and let the tune breathe. It’s a sparse introspective tune.

Not necessarily. I mean, Coltrane plays lots of notes...

[James W]

Playing the song doesn't mean repeating the melody or an embellishment of the melody, it means playing the spirit of the song.

I think terms like the 'spirit' of the song is far too subjective to be helpful.