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Originally Posted by James W
So it implies an overall sensitivity, not a partial one. It's not merely intellectual or emotional in separate compartments, it's understanding the tune as a whole. When you say subjective you're quite right, the feeling for anything is always subjective, and there's nothing wrong with that. If you have no response at all you'd be a bit dead. But it depends on the quality of that feeling, whether it's a superficial response or has depth. And then you play from that.
So there has to be a fusion, as it were, between the feeling for the tune and the technical skills needed to express that feeling. There's the problem. But the more honed one's skills and the more infused the tune is in one the better the delivery. But all that requires time, patience and application. In short, the more one puts into it, the more comes out of it.
But a real player, of course, is never satisfied, simply because the expression rarely matches the feeling he has initially. I think there are some Wes Montgomery tunes with (take 8) on them. They don't just bounce in and dash it off, there's always that feeling of incompleteness that impels them to try it again. And so we suffer for our art, and not just musicians!
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02-25-2024 11:05 AM
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Somebody wiser than me once said "if the tune has words, you should be aware of them and what they're about."
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In fact there's this one that went to take 9.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Strangely, I think it was Kind Of Blue (of all albums) where it was all take one. They just started and did it. Pah, not fair!
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Because of the vibes. Which are of course capable of description by other more concrete means … time feel, stuff like that.
But still. Vibes.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Originally Posted by James W
To the original question, I try to think of a solo as a composition. There are sections where you explore the motifs and implications of the head and places where you explore implications of the harmony. There are also interludes where you stray far from both. Exactly what the mix turns out to be on a given tune depends on the players, the tune, the setting, etc.
All that said, always learn the melody, and never learn just the changes.
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Originally Posted by John A.
However, taken as advice, simply saying someone must play the spirit of a song is too vague and wishy-washy, as well as subjective. I get that a teacher should demonstrate by how they play, but it would be useful to say the least if they could articulate at least some aspects of what they think a student should do to improve verbally i.e. discussion. And discussion ought to involve at least some concrete ideas like melody embellishment, which is what Ragman stated that playing the song shouldn't involve and instead invoked 'the spirit of the song' which IMO wouldn't be helpful for the reasons I've already stated.
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Originally Posted by James W
Obviously the feeling of the whole thing isn't the only factor, as I said before. You need the musical skills to convey the feel. I'm not saying getting the feel of it is the only factor. That would definitely be hopelessly vague!
You've heard 'once more with feeling'? Of course. That's the point. You can play a tune mechanically, note perfect and all that, but without any feeling there's not much point to it.
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Originally Posted by James W
There are also objective elements to “spirit”, such as context in which it was written, lyrics, history of performance or recording, etc. People can talk about those things and use them to draw out their own feelings. E.g., the biographical context for My Funny Valentine, or the setting of Girl from Ipanema.
Ultimately how I feel about one of those songs and how you feel are subjective and personal, but that doesn’t stop us from playing them and (ideally) conveying our feeling to others.
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Originally Posted by James W
Also, this version is too fast. It kills the feel.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
I am aware that Miles Davis was apt to make koan-like utterances that would elicit special performances from his already world-class musicians, such as telling John McLaughlin to play the guitar like he didn't know how to play it. But I find it hard to believe he'd tell someone to play the spirit of the song. For one thing, if it's a new tune, then that advice is even less applicable. And it's far too woolly.
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Originally Posted by John A.
I welcome and concur with your concrete & objective suggestions on playing standards, though I wouldn't file those under the rubric 'spirit'.
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Be interested to know what your source is for that quote. I just checked Miles's autobiography, and yeah, Trane quit after the European tour, so I don't see how that relates to what you've attributed to Miles, which suggests Miles wasn't happy with how Trane was playing.
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Originally Posted by James W
I mean, take two extreme examples. A happy, bouncy tune in a major key and a slower, more introspective tune in a minor key. Obviously they have widely different effects on the nervous system, right? That's all, and that difference becomes more subtle with every tune. Which in turn affects the way you'll play it.
So, as I said, what a player gets from a tune depends a lot on how sensitive and receptive they are. It's not really mysterious.
it's far too woolly.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Be nice to my friend Trane
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Originally Posted by ragman1
I think you probably can reduce “feeling” to some concrete concepts but never quite get to the point where there isn’t “vibing” involved.
Like what I mentioned about time-feel. It’s a concrete thing, but also extremely difficult to quantify in specific detail the way you could with tempo or something. So it’s still super useful to point out some aspects of what makes one tune “feel” different without worrying that pointing those out will strip the feeling out of the song at all.
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Originally Posted by James W
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Originally Posted by ragman1
Originally Posted by ragman1
I get your point - if you can call it that - several times over, it's just couched in terms like playing the 'spirit of the song' which I reject.
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Originally Posted by James W
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Be nice to my friend Trane
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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i solo over the chords mainly
and if i’ve got headroom i will
reference tune too
that way round tho
Question about All of Me / Ella Fitzgerald version
Today, 01:31 PM in The Songs