counting during guitar improvisation

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 05-26-2010, 05:04 PM

Gr8!

**Gramps** · 05-26-2010, 05:05 PM

LOL. One big happy family.

Baltar Hornbeek · 05-26-2010, 05:05 PM

I agree, if the OP can't hear and follow the chord changes to a song, he shouldn't be improvising on it. Better to get simple, scale everything way down.

**musicalbodger** · 05-26-2010, 05:42 PM

the knowledge of science with is jazz

Funny, I thought it was art. Maybe that's where the confusion lies.

**FatJeff** · 05-26-2010, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by drobniuch

Ladies.. please this is a jazz forum, (here) [I/and probably others] worship people for the knowledge of science with is jazz; this posts R 4 me only waste of time.. and bring nothing

If U really don't like my ART of writing, ask Dirk Laukens to put by my posts the illiterate sighn (U can design it in MS Paint) and then when U see it, U just skip my posts..
P.S. if I breake the rulez of the JazzForum.be Dirk will kindly block my account -don't worry

I agree that you should be spelling things out here - please don't use text-speak. The time and place for that is on a cellphone, not when you have the luxury of a full keyboard. It makes it a lot harder for people to read what it is you're trying to say.

On a forum such as this, the written word is our only glimpse into who you are. We cannot see your facial expressions an we can't read your body language. I would hate to see your valuable posts get ignored just because you are trying to save a few seconds.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 05-26-2010, 06:41 PM

I've noticed on forums where text-speak runs rampant that the level of discourse is noticeably lower.

**franamico** · 05-26-2010, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by bobbyatopk

hey, i have been teaching my self classical guitar for a couple of years and im trying to begin learning jazz as well.

i learned to play all the 5 scale shapes up the neck in the key of c and i am practicing improvising over a ii-V progression (without the I chord for now) im doing abit of practice in each scale shape.

my problem is that i don't know if i should be counting in my head when im improvising? so when i play something fast i would have to say 1 e and a 2 e and a 3 etc...

this seems quite hard. the other option i thought would be to just hear the chords changing and feel the rhythm (my ear will need abit of work for that)

any way, after two bars i usually end up just aimlessly noodling about so any advice would be greatly appreciated

thanks

My straight answer to your question is NO!
No counting...
Your timing AND your feel must come out naturally.
There are specific techniques you can start using immediately in order to do that.
I posted several articles on this topic, including a video by Kenny Werner (Effortless Mastery) on my blog (in my signature), where you'll find tons of techniques on how to develop your sense of rhythm...

**randalljazz** · 05-27-2010, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by bobbyatopk

hey, i have been teaching my self classical guitar for a couple of years and im trying to begin learning jazz as well.

i learned to play all the 5 scale shapes up the neck in the key of c and i am practicing improvising over a ii-V progression (without the I chord for now) im doing abit of practice in each scale shape.

my problem is that i don't know if i should be counting in my head when im improvising? so when i play something fast i would have to say 1 e and a 2 e and a 3 etc...

this seems quite hard. the other option i thought would be to just hear the chords changing and feel the rhythm (my ear will need abit of work for that)

any way, after two bars i usualy end up just aimlessly noodling about so any advice would be greatly appreciated

thanks

learn to phrase. start simple--make four measure phrases, with one whole note only in the fourth measure (a point of repose). then make pairs of phrases, four measures each (question and answer), still with long notes in measures 4 and 8. most western music is put together in this manner (sometimes disguised). be very emphatic about one, eventually you won't need to think about it so much.

do this for scales, ii-V exercises, and over tunes.

**bobbyatopk** · 05-27-2010, 05:11 AM

thanks guys.

i will check out that blog now!

and randaljazz, should i compose these phrases on paper/ slowly on the guitar to be used later (at least at first) and eventually be able to improvise them without having to think too much? interesting point though thanks alot!

you guys have given me a lot to think about.

**randalljazz** · 05-27-2010, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by bobbyatopk

thanks guys.

i will check out that blog now!

and randaljazz, should i compose these phrases on paper/ slowly on the guitar to be used later (at least at first) and eventually be able to improvise them without having to think too much? interesting point though thanks alot!

you guys have given me a lot to think about.

no, improvise on the guitar, with a metronome or playalong or backing track. start as simple as you need to maintain control.

**drobniuch** · 05-27-2010, 08:04 AM

uote: Originally Posted by bobbyatopk

thanks guys.

i will check out that blog now!

and randaljazz, should i compose these phrases on paper/ slowly on the guitar to be used later (at least at first) and eventually be able to improvise them without having to think too much? interesting point though thanks alot!

you guys have given me a lot to think about.
no, improvise on the guitar, with a metronome or playalong or backing track. start as simple as you need to maintain control.

great advise randall jazz..
I only add: when u play long notes whole bar @ first do it without metronome chose the arpegio notes.. one at a bar, when trhrow many bars slelect most common note from all arps if it's posible.. then after a time just improvise on the arps notes.. it gives U the natural ability to select (on the ear) the best start notes -remeber too sing them

**drobniuch** · 05-27-2010, 08:11 AM

by the way this R the things U're get to know from a jazz guitar teacher, mayby here it's for free but.. some advises when heard from a person siting directry in front of U R getting dipper in mind.. so get a teacher, and buy books from amazon

**Reg** · 05-27-2010, 10:50 PM

The metronome or rhythm track is great for helping to improve your time, most players time isn't as good as they think. The counting out of beats or breakdown of beats is usually used while your sight reading, at least while your still developing your sight reading. Eventually you recognize most rhythm and don't have to count as much. Randals points about phrasing are extremely important in jazz. Jazz is almost always groups of 2 or 4, which can become 8,12,16, 24, 32 etc... There's nothing worse when playing a AABA tune and having trouble feeling which A is the beginning of the tune. Well maybe when the tempo slows... or when the beat get turned around... I guess I could go on... I play to many gigs... My point is very simple, work on your time with something besides what you feel. the very best Reg

**Goofsus4** · 05-28-2010, 11:41 AM

do u remember the person we ran off the forum a while back cuz we dissed his punctuation?

counting,,,,,can't see how you can do it in a real situation,,,,,,,prolly should dump the metronome,,,,just lrn 2 swing cat,,,,,

**musicalbodger** · 05-28-2010, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Goofsus4

do u remember the person we ran off the forum a while back cuz we dissed his punctuation?

counting,,,,,can't see how you can do it in a real situation,,,,,,,prolly should dump the metronome,,,,just lrn 2 swing cat,,,,,

Been thinking about this quite a bit since this thread started (counting not spelling

). No one learned timing or counting from paper, it can only be absorbed through listening and playing. Sorry, I've just realised I'm repeating my first post

.

I'll just go and crawl back under the stairs.

**shrd11** · 11-22-2010, 06:45 AM

anyway, I like to put the metronome on 60 and count each beep as the 4 of the measure. I find that my phrasing really comes out beautifully this way. It is, at first, a pain to keep the time "on".

It's also really awesome to simply play ascending and decending lines straight through a section of a song you're learning. Do this in whole, 1/2, 1/4, and 1/8 notes but play on the beat then behind and lastly ahead. Get used to doing that then mix up the "ons, behinds and aheads"
I love doing this! When it becomes very smooth and effortless, you're really getting somewhere.

you may even want to write a few combinations out to give youreself some focus, but you shouldn't write out too many; those "too many" you should learn to improvise based off of what you've written down.
cheers
shrd11

**shrd11** · 11-22-2010, 06:46 AM

anyway, I like to put the metronome on 60 and count each beep as the 4 of the measure. I find that my phrasing really comes out beautifully this way. It is, at first, a pain to keep the time "on".

It's also really awesome to simply play ascending and decending lines straight through a section of a song you're learning. Do this in whole, 1/2, 1/4, and 1/8 notes but play on the beat then behind and lastly ahead. Get used to doing that then mix up the "ons, behinds and aheads"
I love doing this! When it becomes very smooth and effortless, you're really getting somewhere.

you may even want to write a few combinations out to give youreself some focus, but you shouldn't write out too many; those "too many" you should learn to improvise based off of what you've written down.
cheers
shrd11

**ronjazz** · 11-22-2010, 11:27 PM

Play tunes. Learn the changes and melodies, even the lyrics. This will teach you about structure. Sing the songs while playing the chords. Improvisation will start to happen as long as you are practicing scales and arpeggios.

**P.J.** · 11-23-2010, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by musicalbodger

It's got to be in your body. Can you imagine counting to So What? That's 16 bars/Dm 8bars/Ebm 8 bars/Dm. So once you come off the Ebm you'd be counting 24 bars. Long time ago, I tried it, it doesn't work.

Others may disagree but I think the only way is to get the rhythm in your soul by learning melodies and the counting becomes automatic.

That would work fine unless, and this a big unless, you have already sold your soul for rock and roll, in which case, you would be s.o.l.!

PJ

**manu68** · 11-25-2010, 09:38 AM

A propos counting.
I play mainly with backtracks.
Following the rythm is okay, playing together with the band is okay, but I am very often lost during the tune.
I concentrate on my own play, on hearing the virtual Band, and I just can count !
It gets better with chords "Four to the bar", but playing Melody or improvising, it seems to me impossible to know who I am after a while.

In the reality, someone could make me a sign , but a backtrack

I take an example.

Aebersold backtracks. You have an indications on the Music sheet. "Play 6 times" . I can follow proeperly the 2 or three first ones, but after that it makes a lot of bars

. I am not anymore 100% sure about who I am in the tune, and what to play.
How do you know always exactly who you are in the tune, and what remains to be played ??
Because of that, I often miss the coda at the end, or a nice stop at the end.

Here is for sure some very good advices.
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...-improv-2.html
And It seems that a lot of people are concerned by the same problem.
My problem is not really to play within a 32 bars. My problem is to know how many times the 32 bars were already played , and what comes next (solo from an other instrument, coda , ...)!

**musicalbodger** · 11-25-2010, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by manu68

A propos counting.
I play mainly with backtracks.
Following the rythm is okay, playing together with the band is okay, but I am very often lost during the tune.
I concentrate on my own play, on hearing the virtual Band, and I just can count !
It gets better with chords "Four to the bar", but playing Melody or improvising, it seems to me impossible to know who I am after a while.

In the reality, someone could make me a sign , but a backtrack

I take an example.

Aebersold backtracks. You have an indications on the Music sheet. "Play 6 times" . I can follow proeperly the 2 or three first ones, but after that it makes a lot of bars

. I am not anymore 100% sure about who I am in the tune, and what to play.
How do you know always exactly who you are in the tune, and what remains to be played ??
Because of that, I often miss the coda at the end, or a nice stop at the end.

Here is for sure some very good advices.
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...-improv-2.html
And It seems that a lot of people are concerned by the same problem.
My problem is not really to play within a 32 bars. My problem is to know how many times the 32 bars were already played , and what comes next (solo from an other instrument, coda , ...)!

Hi manu68, you have to learn the tune and play it over and over again until it is in your head before even thinking about improvising on it. That way you won't have to think about it because it will be playing in your head whilst you improvise. Try it on just one tune and you'll see what I'm talking about. Otherwise you're trying to run before you can walk.

Regarding your English. I presume it is not your first language so I hope you won't be offended if I point out a consistent mistake you make. WHO refers to a person, the word you need in these sentence is WHERE which refers to a place. Apart from that mistake, no problem. Hope you don't mind me pointing it out.

"I am not anymore 100% sure about who I am in the tune, and what to play.
How do you know always exactly who you are in the tune, and what remains to be played ??"

**musicalbodger** · 11-25-2010, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by manu68

Thanks a lot for your comments.

I also have learnt something very important regarding my english.

No problem, manu, glad to be of assistance.

**lkmuller** · 11-26-2010, 01:39 AM

Counting while improvising may get you started, but honestly, once you get the hang of improvising you probably won't be counting anymore. Counting is totally left brained, while improvising really involves the right brain. You'll eventualy just "feel" and "hear" where you are.