interesting Improvisation education

[SOLR]

BEWARE OF SALE pitch at the end though
S

[Bop Head]

BEWARE OF SALE pitch at the end though
S

A great channel I have been following for a while already. He has interesting interviews as well.

[AllanAllen]

What’s the summary? Learn basic scales then copy licks?

[pauln]

What’s the summary? Learn basic scales then copy licks?

The key phrase and concept was "by ear". I taught myself to play by ear from day one; for some reason I have never questioned what improvising might be for the last five decades. The only thing I didn't like in the video was when mentioning transcribing he shows someone writing the notes on staff paper... without including mention of transcribing by ear (which is the key mechanism of everything "by ear").

[princeplanet]

.. and Lennie Tristano turns in his grave, again...

[AllanAllen]

The key phrase and concept was "by ear". I taught myself to play by ear from day one; for some reason I have never questioned what improvising might be for the last five decades. The only thing I didn't like in the video was when mentioning transcribing he shows someone writing the notes on staff paper... without including mention of transcribing by ear (which is the key mechanism of everything "by ear").

I’ve progressed a lot since I pivoted to ear over paper. It’s hard, but I’m seeing results.

Do you mean transcribe with no instrument to check? Can you do a song you haven’t heard on an unknown key all by ear?

[Jimmy Smith]

I don't see why everything has to be click bait dogma. Yes, he gave some accurate advice. One of the main points in the middle was when you improvise you want to communicate using vocab your audience understands. At the end he summarized his premise throughout the video, you do want to learn your musical basics but he basically regurgitated that you want to build up knowledge and your own vocab through transcribing. Yes, that is important, but you also need to understand how to build material from scratch which he kind of downplayed and overlooked. Everything isn't a lick or was derived from an innate process of lick learning. I honestly think these educators plain old do not understand how to build melody. They also clearly can't hear well, because if they could, they would hear that great improvisors like the ones in the video use raw material to come up with inspiring music.

[Bop Head]

I don't see why everything has to be click bait dogma. Yes, he gave some accurate advice. One of the main points in the middle was when you improvise you want to communicate using vocab your audience understands. At the end he summarized his premise throughout the video, you do want to learn your musical basics but he basically regurgitated that you want to build up knowledge and your own vocab through transcribing. Yes, that is important, but you also need to understand how to build material from scratch which he kind of downplayed and overlooked. Everything isn't a lick or was derived from an innate process of lick learning. I honestly think these educators plain old do not understand how to build melody. They also clearly can't hear well, because if they could, they would hear that great improvisors like the ones in the video use raw material to come up with inspiring material.

They do this to make you mad.

[pamosmusic]

I mean … I can’t really say I disagree with much here (aside from his assertion that his nonsense phrase “followed the rules of grammar”, but I digress). I just think the whole thing is one big strawman …

… People out there saying that improvisation is never playing the same thing twice?

Citation needed, my guy. I’ve literally never heard that before in my life.

So yeah … good information, I guess. Just not sure why everything needs to be put out there like it’s some kind of forbidden knowledge or something. Gets tired quick.

[pamosmusic]

I honestly think these educators plain old do not understand how to build melody. They also clearly can't hear well, because if they could, they would hear that great improvisors like the ones in the video use raw material to come up with inspiring material.

I mean … sure? But you can’t really separate the raw material from the vocab.

Grant Green plays triads but also dresses those triads up with cool bebop isms. Both are important and I’m all about practicing my interval stuff and a billion ways to play triads, but consider:

You get the triad by focusing on the Grant Green vocabulary.

You can’t get the Grant Green vocabulary by focusing on the triads.

So one is somewhat more important than the other. Even if it’s just matters of degree.

[Jimmy Smith]

^ Yes, you do learn more about the advanced, exact, real idea by focusing in. So that's not expendable. But you also learn how to do it independently with the raw theory, so that's not expendable. They're both essential. They don't need to click bait against half the process.

They do this to make you mad.

Yes, they do.

[Bop Head]

I’ve progressed a lot since I pivoted to ear over paper. It’s hard, but I’m seeing results.

Do you mean transcribe with no instrument to check? Can you do a song you haven’t heard on an unknown key all by ear?

I do not get what people mean by "unknown key", "a key I have not practiced yet" etc.

If soon as you start to hear chords as related to a tonic instead of chord names you will be independent of a certain key.

I realized that what I had considered a bad habit -- I used to transpose everything to C to understand a written chord sequence better because I had learned harmony theory in C -- turned out as something good as soon as I started to use the Roman numerals instead of chord names in relation to a C tonic and connect them with a sound. Those two videos are by pianists, on guitar we can simply shift everything around which makes it even easier. But you have to connect a sound with those numerals. I started ear training in this regard 35 years ago so it became second nature.

Recently I went to a jazz session and sat in for Night And Day among other tunes. The singer wanted to do it in Bb (original key Eb) and after the set the bassist, an old friend and a top professional who spent several years in NYC and went to the New School, complimented me for being able to transpose the tune on the fly. But I explained to him that I did not transpose. The sound of Night And Day for me is not Cbmaj7 going to Bb7 to Ebmaj7 but bVImaj7 going to V7 to Imaj7. If I know we are in the key of Bb I know the root of I is on the 6th string at the 6th fret and from there I know where the other chords are without thinking about their names. I know e.g. the bVI root is on the 5th string 3 frets up etc.

I like Peter Martin of Open Studio calling this "playing in the key of music".

EDIT: I had learned harmony theory in C because I had figured everything out on keyboard instruments and C was the easiest key for a non-player on keys.

[pamosmusic]

I do not get what people mean by "unknown key", "a key I have not practiced yet" etc.

For what it's worth, it sounds like you get exactly what people mean by that. You just aren't limited by the trivialities of mortals.

[Bop Head]

Yes, they do.

The thing that is really a little stupid, if I you allow me to call it so, is that you get so impressed and mad by the form of the presentation or the fact that people are not talking about intervals, arpeggios and scales (did I remember that one right?) in the way you would like to talk them about those things, that you might miss important bits of information.

[Bop Head]

[...] So yeah … good information, I guess. Just not sure why everything needs to be put out there like it’s some kind of forbidden knowledge or something. Gets tired quick.

Some things are so obvious that you do not see them. Happened to me as well many times. It took me 30 years to find the Things I Learned From Barry Harris channel and Chris Parks explaining how to put chord tones an strong beats by adding extra notes (Chris does not present his stuff as esoteric knowledge I have to add). I have spent a fortune on imported US and UK guitar magazines and no one ever talked about that. I have seen scale material notated under chord symbols, but no one talked about putting it "rhythmically correct" like the BH scale outlines from root to up to seventh. Eureka moments.

[pamosmusic]

Some things are so obvious that you do not see them. Happened to me as well many times. It took me 30 years to find the Things I Learned From Barry Harris channel and Chris Parks explaining how to put chord tones an strong beats by adding extra notes (Chris does not present his stuff as esoteric knowledge I have to add). I have spent a fortune on imported US and UK guitar magazines and no one ever talked about that. I have seen scale material notated under chord symbols, but no one talked about putting it "rhythmically correct" like the BH scale outlines from root to up to seventh. Eureka moments.

Interesting. Barry’s stuff is new to me and more interesting but that rhythmic adjustment of scales is a pretty common thing … bebop scales have been a jazz Ed favorite for a good long while.

[pauln]

I’ve progressed a lot since I pivoted to ear over paper. It’s hard, but I’m seeing results.

Do you mean transcribe with no instrument to check? Can you do a song you haven’t heard on an unknown key all by ear?

I think transcribing by ear has different "modes" but all based on the same thing; being able to clearly hear in one's mind's ear the sound you wish to put to the instrument, the difference being how much time you have to hear the sound.

- deliberate transcribing while practicing with the instrument (as long as you want)
- incidental transcribing while away from the instrument (the duration of what you heard)
- real time transcribing while performing (putting it to the instrument now, and anticipating what's coming)

The first decribes a highly focused but not time urgent activity putting the sound to the instrument, the second describes hearing and holding it for later to be put to the instrument, the third is what happens when you've been fortunate to have been the host band's guitarist for over ten years of weekly open mic, routinely playing music you've never heard with people you've just met.

[Bop Head]

Interesting. Barry’s stuff is new to me and more interesting but that rhythmic adjustment of scales is a pretty common thing … bebop scales have been a jazz Ed favorite for a good long while.

I am an autodidact and never had formal lessons neither on guitar nor about theory. Apart from a few very helpful things shown to me by friends*) I am absolutely self-taught with the help of books and magazines and in the last few years YouTube videos. So I might have missed a few things.**)

*) e.g. the Goodrick "Advanced Guitarist" approach to scales and a few exercises shown to me by a friend who originally was a world-class classical guitarist.

**) I have somewhere the US Keyboard magazine with that article about Barry Harris by Howard Rees. I knew notation from my recorder and classical piano lessons as a kid but at that time I did not want to bother too much with it. I was an ear player playing in a rock band and I had bought the magazine because of something related to sound engineering.

[Christian Miller]

I don't see why everything has to be click bait dogma.

Because people won't watch your videos otherwise. So there's no point making them. The YouTube algorithm is set up that way.

It's like those Rick Beato videos where the click bait title is 'is this garbage REALLY the Spotify top ten?' and the actual video is usually more nuanced.

YES it's annoying. and YES I'll be doing the same sort of thing myself (as much as I can stomach it).

[Christian Miller]

A great channel I have been following for a while already. He has interesting interviews as well.

Is there anything on YouTube you haven't watched?

What was the last solo/head you transcribed?

[Bop Head]

Is there anything on YouTube you haven't watched?

What was the last solo/head you transcribed?

From my to-do-Iist ATM:

• I am working on the melody of the bridge of Afternoon in Paris
• I have finally finished There Will Never Be Another You (was always unsure about the changes of the last 8)
• I learned Night And Day
• I repeated Mercy, Mercy, Mercy which I learned by ear 30 years ago
• I learned the correct form of Cantaloup Island
• I am working on the changes of the bridge of Cry Me A River
• I am working on the changes of the bridge of If You Could See Me Now
• I am constantly repeating Born To Be Blue
• I have to repeat On Green Dolphin Street (changes of last 8) and How High The Moon
• I have to learn the Cootie Williams interlude (that Barry Harry sometimes uses as pre-intro) and the Dizzy coda of 'Round Midnight (a tune I am constantly working on since maybe 3 years and finally distilled some kind of essence of the Monk changes)
• I have to learn the interlude of A Night In Tunesia.
• I have to finally starting to transcribe a whole solo, so far I am rather picking up licks here and there.

I learn the melodies of the above mentioned tunes by ear by listening to as many different versions of a tune as possible and use the help of sheet music if I get stuck with the changes which happens less and less often.

What I am working on a lot is improvising with mainly chord tones and tones of substitution chords and approaching and surrounding them. I try to improvise with the melody in mind. And I am working a whole lot on comping with shell chords and how to substitute and approach those.

I go to as many sessions as possible (straight ahead yesterday, manouche tonight) and I am in the process of contacting people to play with regularly which hopefully will lead to a gigging band.

As you can see, I do a little more musically than just watching YouTube. As for most of the things that interest me on YouTube the visual aspect is not so important, I am listening to them while doing other mechanical things like e.g. cooking, doing the dishes or cleaning.

[Bop Head]

From my to-do-Iist ATM:

• I am working on the melody of the bridge of Afternoon in Paris
• I have finally finished There Will Never Be Another You (was always unsure about the changes of the last 8)
• I learned Night And Day
• I repeated Mercy, Mercy, Mercy which I learned by ear 30 years ago
• I learned the correct form of Cantaloup Island
• I am working on the changes of the bridge of Cry Me A River
• I am working on the changes of the bridge of If You Could See Me Now
• I am constantly repeating Born To Be Blue
• I have to repeat On Green Dolphin Street (changes of last 8) and How High The Moon
• I have to learn the Cootie Williams interlude (that Barry Harry sometimes uses as pre-intro) and the Dizzy coda of 'Round Midnight (a tune I am constantly working on since maybe 3 years and finally distilled some kind of essence of the Monk changes)
• I have to learn the interlude of A Night In Tunesia.
• I have to finally starting to transcribe a whole solo, so far I am rather picking up licks here and there.

I learn the melodies of the above mentioned tunes by ear by listening to as many different versions of a tune as possible and use the help of sheet music if I get stuck with the changes which happens less and less often.

What I am working on a lot is improvising with mainly chord tones and tones of substitution chords and approaching and surrounding them. I try to improvise with the melody in mind. And I am working a whole lot on comping with shell chords and how to substitute and approach those.

I go to as many sessions as possible (straight ahead yesterday, manouche tonight) and I am in the process of contacting people to play with regularly which hopefully will lead to a gigging band.

As you can see, I do a little more musically than just watching YouTube. As for most of the things that interest me on YouTube the visual aspect is not so important, I am listening to them while doing other mechanical things like e.g. cooking, doing the dishes or cleaning.

I forgot to mention I learned Cherokee. Does not mean I am great at improvising on it already but I know the melody and the form and understand the changes.

[Christian Miller]

Nice. I think I myself would struggle to focus on so many different things at one time. I seem to be able to concentrate on maximum three things at any one time. I habitualise some things like reading practice and so on so that I remember to do them. I’m usually working on one tune at any point.

[Bop Head]

Nice. I think I myself would struggle to focus on so many different things at one time. I seem to be able to concentrate on maximum three things at any one time. I habitualise some things like reading practice and so on so that I remember to do them. I’m usually working on one tune at any point.

This is just a list of things I am working on ATM or that I have recently finished. I am not working on all these every day, rather one or two tunes on one day and one or two other tunes on the next day. Some are tunes that have been with many versions on my MP3 player for a long time, some are tunes that I have known for years like Mercy, Mercy, Mercy or Cantaloupe Island. And I am working in small portions at home mostly, a quarter of an hour high concentration on one thing, then a break, doing something different, then back to the axe. Works for me. I am making progress, like e.g. I am using my pinky naturally for single note lines which I used to use for chords only in my rock&roll and reggae days.

Now off to the blues session to sing and play a little. "Thursday's also sad. The eagle flies on friday."

[Reg]

You want to get good at improvising.... learn how to rhythmically develop solos.

I'm somewhat joking.... but most solos get boring quick because the player has no rhythm ...or skilled use of rhythmic development.

My personal order of most important aspects of a solo...

1) Rhythmic
2) Harmonic
3) Melodic

Keep in mind... the melody is always already played at least 2xs with every tune.