Usefulness of generic exercise books on the guitar

[Travelrock]

I would like to know your experience as guitarists with generic exercise books like "Patterns for jazz" by Jerry Coker, "Building a jazz vocabulary" by Mike Steinel or similar. These books have a great reputation for their contribution to learning jazz, but being generic, I have some doubts about its most appropriate application on the guitar.

Do you read from this books (Aebersold inclusive) on the guitar an octave higher? Do you work the exercises in two different octaves?

These generic exercises generally only come in an octave (for example, Cook ex. 18, pag 12), how do you get the best performance from this type of exercises? I have thought about adapting them so that they cover two octaves, since the use of a single octave is not enough to work the different forms of arpeggios on the fretboard and limits what has been learned to a part of the guitar range.

I would like to know your experience in these matters, as it will help me make decisions.

Thank you very much in advance!

[pamosmusic]

I would like to know your experience as guitarists with generic exercise books like "Patterns for jazz" by Jerry Coker, "Building a jazz vocabulary" by Mike Steinel or similar. These books have a great reputation for their contribution to learning jazz, but being generic, I have some doubts about its most appropriate application on the guitar.

Do you read from this books (Aebersold inclusive) on the guitar an octave higher? Do you work the exercises in two different octaves?

These generic exercises generally only come in an octave (for example, Cook ex. 18, pag 12), how do you get the best performance from this type of exercises? I have thought about adapting them so that they cover two octaves, since the use of a single octave is not enough to work the different forms of arpeggios on the fretboard and limits what has been learned to a part of the guitar range.

I would like to know your experience in these matters, as it will help me make decisions.

Thank you very much in advance!

I love books like this … my general rule of thumb is that if it’s worth playing, it’s worth transposing.

So if you see an idea over a C major triad, say, the first thing I do is play it over every C I can find. Every octave and every fingering, etc.

The next thing would be to play it over the rest of the major triads.

Then I would start transposing it diatonically, insofar as that’s possible. So I’d pick a position, and then play the idea over C major, D minor, E minor, etc.

That’s assuming I like the idea. Playing it in every position I do with most stuff, but if I don’t like it, I’ll stop and move on to the next thing.

And for the inevitable person who will reply to this thread and say books are silly and you should just transcribe, this is also what I do with lines I steal.

[pamosmusic]

Beyond that, it might help to see one of the ideas. I don’t have the one you cited (Cook, ex 18 etc)

[Tal_175]

I love "Patterns for Jazz". But there is a caveat. These books are usually written with horn players in mind so they focus on moving things through different keys. For guitar players, it is just as important (if not more important) to move things to different fingerings and areas of the fretboard. So don't be afraid to "adapt" them to guitar.

[James W]

I have both the Steinel and Coker books. I don't like the Coker, but I like the Steinel which I get some use out of - I removed one page from the appendix of the root progressions and random root progressions and for a while (not so much recently, maybe I ought to get back into it) used it to practice transposing 3 or 4 or 8 note cells.

[Travelrock]

Beyond that, it might help to see one of the ideas. I don’t have the one you cited (Cook, ex 18 etc)

It’s a simple Major 7 arpeggio (1357) in the 12 keys.

[Travelrock]

I love books like this … my general rule of thumb is that if it’s worth playing, it’s worth transposing.

So if you see an idea over a C major triad, say, the first thing I do is play it over every C I can find. Every octave and every fingering, etc.

The next thing would be to play it over the rest of the major triads.

Then I would start transposing it diatonically, insofar as that’s possible. So I’d pick a position, and then play the idea over C major, D minor, E minor, etc.

That’s assuming I like the idea. Playing it in every position I do with most stuff, but if I don’t like it, I’ll stop and move on to the next thing.

And for the inevitable person who will reply to this thread and say books are silly and you should just transcribe, this is also what I do with lines I steal.

Thanks for your reply. I like your way of taking advantage of these resources, I take note of the idea!

[Travelrock]

I love "Patterns for Jazz". But there is a caveat. These books are usually written with horn players in mind so they focus on moving things through different keys. For guitar players, it is just as important (if not more important) to move things to different fingerings and areas of the fretboard. So don't be afraid to "adapt" them to guitar.

Thank you. I think we agree that you can get more out of these books by doing “something” to adapt them a little to the guitar.

[Travelrock]

I have both the Steinel and Coker books. I don't like the Coker, but I like the Steinel which I get some use out of - I removed one page from the appendix of the root progressions and random root progressions and for a while (not so much recently, maybe I ought to get back into it) used it to practice transposing 3 or 4 or 8 note cells.

Yes, my idea is also to use it as a complement to my practice, an enrichment, of course combining it with many other aspects of learning.
However... I see Coker's book as somewhat more musical, at least what I have been able to read at first sight.

[AllanAllen]

I read middle C as 3rd fret A string. I’m still working on Mel Bay book 1. But also read the real book this way. Mickey Baker had fingering with his book I don’t remember how they went.

[pamosmusic]

I read middle C as 3rd fret A string. I’m still working on Mel Bay book 1. But also read the real book this way. Mickey Baker had fingering with his book I don’t remember how they went.

Reading the Real Book, you’d probably want to transpose up. Middle C on the piano sounds at the fifth fret G-string. Most of the time when a guitarist gets a chart, they have to transpose up. Even good arrangers tend not to bother with transposing the octave for guitar.

Partly the transposing up is because you want to read them where they sound, but it’s also a practical consideration. Reading where it’s written, you’d tend to be muddy and clash with the bass, or be below the register of the comping piano if there is one. Also for purposes of putting chords under something from time to time, leaving a little register underneath is a good idea.

But as it pertains to the question, I tend to try to get exercises and licks off the page immediately if I can.

[AllanAllen]

Reading the Real Book, you’d probably want to transpose up. Middle C on the piano sounds at the fifth fret G-string. Most of the time when a guitarist gets a chart, they have to transpose up. Even good arrangers tend not to bother with transposing the octave for guitar.

Partly the transposing up is because you want to read them where they sound, but it’s also a practical consideration. Reading where it’s written, you’d tend to be muddy and clash with the bass, or be below the register of the comping piano if there is one. Also for purposes of putting chords under something from time to time, leaving a little register underneath is a good idea.

But as it pertains to the question, I tend to try to get exercises and licks off the page immediately if I can.

I’ll play it up an octave later, but I read it in the guitar octave. Does that make sense? It’s kind of a moot point now as I learn heads by ear these days.

[pamosmusic]

I meeeeaaaan … I guess the real answer is that if I’m sight reading, I’m doing whatever is easiest

I read everything for starters around fifth position, so I probably transpose or not depending on what gets it closest to there. Oh well.

I guess this is a bit of a sidebar for this thread anyway

[Reg]

So Travelrock... I have a somewhat different approach for getting your playing together. I worked on technique, just the fretboard, the 12 fret repeating organization first. And because I could then play in any position... meaning that transposing or playing exercises in different keys or positions isn't really... a thing. As compared to playing exercises or tunes in all position and then getting your fretboard technique. Or maybe like using exercises to get your fretboard skills together... 1st to help learn how to play the guitar.

... Anyway.... will work as long as you finish. By that I mean most seem to work on different approaches for learning how to play. They combine the actual technical skills of learning how the guitar works and how to play it with different exercises and learning tunes... Many use the two general approach or positions... or shapes. Like playing anything in Gma in ...2nd position or 9th position, and then expand those positions. Which if finished will eventually become one large 12 fret position.

The other detail... don't get stuck on sight reading and playing everything.... slow. Jazz is not slow.

[Bop Head]

So Travelrock... I have a somewhat different approach for getting your playing together. I worked on technique, just the fretboard, the 12 fret repeating organization first. And because I could then play in any position... meaning that transposing or playing exercises in different keys or positions isn't really... a thing. As compared to playing exercises or tunes in all position and then getting your fretboard technique. Or maybe like using exercises to get your fretboard skills together... 1st to help learn how to play the guitar.

... Anyway.... will work as long as you finish. By that I mean most seem to work on different approaches for learning how to play. They combine the actual technical skills of learning how the guitar works and how to play it with different exercises and learning tunes... Many use the two general approach or positions... or shapes. Like playing anything in Gma in ...2nd position or 9th position, and then expand those positions. Which if finished will eventually become one large 12 fret position.

The other detail... don't get stuck on sight reading and playing everything.... slow. Jazz is not slow.

Once again a rather cryptic post by you Reg.

I have a somewhat different approach for getting your playing together. I worked on technique, just the fretboard, the 12 fret repeating organization first. [...] 1st to help learn how to play the guitar.

Could you be so kind to elaborate a little what you did exactly? Don't you need exercises like playing intervals, triads, seventh chords, sequences through a scale to learn the fretboard?

Please do not always be so cryptic. Why do you comment if most people do not understand what you mean?

[...] Many use the two general approach or positions... or shapes. Like playing anything in Gma in ...2nd position or 9th position, and then expand those positions. Which if finished will eventually become one large 12 fret position. [...]

This I understand (I think). Although few positions can go quit a long way, see e.g. Charlie Christian or Herb Ellis.

I practise as recommended by Mick Goodrick in "The Advancing Guitarist" to play systematically (1) scales, arpeggios and melodies on one string, (2) play those things in one position through all keys, one position being defined by the middle and ring finger on the same fret and stretching index and pinky if necessary (I am not sure if that is in the Goodrick, but this way of looking at positions -- the position defined by the middle finger and not by the index -- was recommended to me by someone who had been a world-class classical guitarist -- playing jazz now -- and who explained to me that you cannot stretch middle and ring finger so easily because they are connected tighter than the other fingers).

[...] The other detail... don't get stuck on sight reading and playing everything.... slow. Jazz is not slow.

But you have to start slow and increase the tempo to develop a proper technique, don't you?

[pamosmusic]

I guess if we’re not assuming some proficiency with scales already …

Learning scales to cover the neck is good and should obviously happen first. But kind of an interesting thing is that memorizing patterns isn’t that hard, and playing them straight up and down fast isn’t all that useful. So there’s pretty quickly a “what next” phase …

There are the nuts and bolts things that everyone should do … thirds (maybe sixths), triads, seventh chord arpeggios, maybe some variations on those. But after that, the ideas from books (or transcriptions) kind of are the scale practice.

Learn one and sequence it through the key in position and that makes you think through a million different pathways through that scale and also forces you into problem solving technical issues that might not come up otherwise

[Bop Head]

Yet what has helped me most was to practice phrases systematically in order to be able to start them with any finger on any string (you have to transpose them up or down an octave sometimes as the fretboard's length is not endless). Simple seven-note scales are not very helpful when you are surrounding chord notes (single or double) chromatically all the time which was what I have been practicing most of the time recently. (And it paid out; what i am playing starts to sound like jazz.)

[James W]

But you have to start slow and increase the tempo to develop a proper technique, don't you?

With the fretting (left) hand perhaps. For the right hand, even with an absolute beginner, I would have them pick three tempi - slow, medium and fast and get them doing a tremolo at those tempi. The fast speed will be messy at first and for a while perhaps, but it's an important step to take.

[Bop Head]

Yet what has helped me most was to practice phrases systematically in order to be able to start them with any finger on any string (you have to transpose them up or down an octave sometimes as the fretboard's length is not endless). Simple seven-note scales are not very helpful when you are surrounding chord notes (single or double) chromatically all the time which was what I have been practicing most of the time recently. (And it paid out; what i am playing starts to sound like jazz.)

I forgot to mention two things:

1. If I am learning a tune and i figure out how to play phrases in the above mentioned manner I "keep" those versions that offer the best mixture of convenience and an option to phrase good.

2. But then I also practice those versions that are very inconvenient to play because they show me where my limitations that need to be worked on are.

[FwLineberry]

I worked through the first 59 exercises of the Coker book with the study group on this forum a few years ago. What I did with each exercise was to choose a position or general area of the fretboard to work within rather than just moving up and down the neck with the same finger shape. In my opinion, there is enough variety in those first exercises that the one octave range is not a limitation.

I'd like to get back to that book and go through the rest of the exercises, but I doubt that will ever happen. I'm currently using The Serious Jazz Practice Book by Barry Finnerty as part of my daily scale routine. That book is pretty much like the Coker book except it's organized by scale type, which suits my current needs much better.

Here's my take on Exercise 18

[Travelrock]

I meeeeaaaan … I guess the real answer is that if I’m sight reading, I’m doing whatever is easiest

I read everything for starters around fifth position, so I probably transpose or not depending on what gets it closest to there. Oh well.

I guess this is a bit of a sidebar for this thread anyway

Not to much sidebar, I found interesting your experience since transposition on sight reading is a part of working with books written with horn in mind.

[Travelrock]

Once again a rather cryptic post by you Reg.

Could you be so kind to elaborate a little what you did exactly? Don't you need exercises like playing intervals, triads, seventh chords, sequences through a scale to learn the fretboard?

Please do not always be so cryptic. Why do you comment if most people do not understand what you mean?



This I understand (I think). Although few positions can go quit a long way, see e.g. Charlie Christian or Herb Ellis.

I practise as recommended by Mick Goodrick in "The Advancing Guitarist" to play systematically (1) scales, arpeggios and melodies on one string, (2) play those things in one position through all keys, one position being defined by the middle and ring finger on the same fret and stretching index and pinky if necessary (I am not sure if that is in the Goodrick, but this way of looking at positions -- the position defined by the middle finger and not by the index -- was recommended to me by someone who had been a world-class classical guitarist -- playing jazz now -- and who explained to me that you cannot stretch middle and ring finger so easily because they are connected tighter than the other fingers).



But you have to start slow and increase the tempo to develop a proper technique, don't you?

I am currently working with “The advanced guitarist” as part of my daily routine. I am absolutely pleased with this addition to my practice!

[Travelrock]

I guess if we’re not assuming some proficiency with scales already …

Learning scales to cover the neck is good and should obviously happen first. But kind of an interesting thing is that memorizing patterns isn’t that hard, and playing them straight up and down fast isn’t all that useful. So there’s pretty quickly a “what next” phase …

There are the nuts and bolts things that everyone should do … thirds (maybe sixths), triads, seventh chord arpeggios, maybe some variations on those. But after that, the ideas from books (or transcriptions) kind of are the scale practice.

Learn one and sequence it through the key in position and that makes you think through a million different pathways through that scale and also forces you into problem solving technical issues that might not come up otherwise

A very interesting tip, I will take it into account. From my point of view, one good thing about these books is that they teach “single words” of the jazz language.

[Travelrock]

I worked through the first 59 exercises of the Coker book with the study group on this forum a few years ago. What I did with each exercise was to choose a position or general area of the fretboard to work within rather than just moving up and down the neck with the same finger shape. In my opinion, there is enough variety in those first exercises that the one octave range is not a limitation.

I'd like to get back to that book and go through the rest of the exercises, but I doubt that will ever happen. I'm currently using The Serious Jazz Practice Book by Barry Finnerty as part of my daily scale routine. That book is pretty much like the Coker book except it's organized by scale type, which suits my current needs much better.

Here's my take on Exercise 18

Thanks for the idea, that is precisely one of the points of my post. I think it's a very suggestive way of working out the exercises, I'm going to try it.

I don't know that book you mention, I'm going to take a look.

By the way, I like your sound in the video, congratulations!

[A. Kingstone]

I'd worked through a Mickey Baker book. I was very new to jazz in my early 20's and my friend's dad who was an accomplished reed player said 'I'd like to take this book (Patterns For Jazz) to a cabin in the woods for six months and come out sounding like Phil Woods'. He leant me his copy and I went through it almost completely. It taught me the fretboard, harmonic movement and elements of melodic lines.