Sweet smooth bouncy swing when improvising.

[Reg]

Seriously doubt this.

(Or at least I doubt there are rhythmic differences any more pronounced than random differences between subdivisions of a rock player playing ostensibly straight eighth notes at a fast tempo.)

i think in general, “swing” gets conflated with a rhythmic adjustment of eighth notes, when the rhythmic adjustment is just a component of swing (and maybe the third or fourth thing down the list, at that).

lots of people play pretty straight and swing like crazy.

Even more people stretch their eighth notes and swing like a pile of dusty bricks.

Man... sometimes simple basic concepts become complicated on this forum. It's on the edge of being silly.
At any speed.... there is swing and there is straight. It just take more skills at faster tempos.

They are two different feels.... I guess I get it... most players don't have chops, and maybe that translates into not being able to hear of feel the difference.

It's not that complicated.... There are different swing feels. Like the example of western swing.

[pamosmusic]

Man... sometimes simple basic concepts become complicated on this forum.

I mean … pot calling the kettle black but okay …

It's on the edge of being silly.
At any speed.... there is swing and there is straight. It just take more skills at faster tempos.

They are two different feels.... I guess I get it... most players don't have chops, and maybe that translates into not being able to hear of feel the difference.

It's not that complicated.... There are different swing feels. Like the example of western swing.

Lots of players who have a long first eighth note straighten that first eighth note out at higher tempos.

Folks were saying that swing is a rhythmic concept. I was saying it has more to do with articulation than the lengthened first eighth note.

Plenty of players who don’t play a “swing eighth note” still swing like crazy.

[sgosnell]

All I know about swing is what I learned by listening to music that swings. I don't read music well enough to speculate about whether swing can be written. I just know it when I hear it. Here is one of the swingingest pieces of music I've ever heard. If this isn't swing, it doesn't exist. Lots of musicians, with different ways of swinging, but they all swing hard.

Can I improvise to this level and swing like that? Not in this lifetime. Most likely not in any other. But I can dream, can't I?

[Reg]

Hey Peter... I'm not sure I understand you... probable just me.
Are you saying that swing is not use of triplets?

[pamosmusic]

Hey Peter... I'm not sure I understand you... probable just me.
Are you saying that swing is not use of triplets?

The rhythmic component is one of several and probably not the most important.

Lots of folks play even eighth notes and still swing (Pat Martino). The triplet time feel is still around in the drums and whatnot, but even that straightens out at high tempos.

A lot of the swing feel lives in accent patterns and articulation.

Listen to a high school jazz band playing perfect paired triplet "swing" and grimace accordingly.

[mr. beaumont]

Listen to a high school jazz band playing perfect paired triplet "swing" and grimace accordingly.

Lol, right?

I'm sure this will open a can of worms, but for a band to really swing (in the groove sense), certain elements need to not be swinging (in the mathematical sense.)

[TF]

Even though I am an ignoramus, I'm going to wade in to this topic.

I think it's far more important to come up with interesting musical ideas, and play them in good time, than to concern yourself with "swinging", if your goal is to make your listeners happy, or interested. A locked-in drummer and bassist will take care of the "swing", for the most part, while you are soloing.

... but I could be wrong...

[pamosmusic]

Lol, right?

I'm sure this will open a can of worms, but for a band to really swing (in the groove sense), certain elements need to not be swinging (in the mathematical sense.)

I remember a masterclass I went to w Wynton Marsalis and he kind of brushed off the idea of swing eighth notes and said he’d like to hear people work more on a swing quarter note. He cited Louis Armstrong, but in general the idea is kind of obvious and illuminating … what swings harder than a good walking bass?

(Of course good bassists play triplets and eighth notes from time to time too, but still)

[Irishmuso]

Even though I am an ignoramus, I'm going to wade in to this topic.

I think it's far more important to come up with interesting musical ideas.

I'm even more of an ignoramus, to the extent that I don't even know what is meant by coming up with interesting musical ideas when improvising. If I spontaneously follow the b7 with an enclosure, is that an 'idea'?

From what I've read so many great soloists don't seem to be consciously thinking of anything when improvising. I don't suppose they mean they are on automatic pilot but if they aren't consciously thinking of anything, how could they be said to be coming up with musical ideas, let alone interesting musical ideas?

As an ignoramus improviser, I have an idea what key I'm in, the melodic and harmonic structure.What I come up with when improvising may be spontaneous to some extent, but am I coming up with ideas at that actual moment? Or just reacting to the melody/ harmony and/or relying on some old habits?

Not that any of this will stop me of course

[TF]

If I spontaneously follow the b7 with an enclosure, is that an 'idea'?

Yes!

[Reg]

OK I'll make it simple.... Generally the reason most can seem to swing at faster tempos.... is lack of technique.

Talk and play with professional drummers... and get into sub-dividing. If your playing latin or funk.... straight time styles ... when you sub-divide, triplets are like a rhythmic embellishment. When you play in a swing style... it's implied.... the rhythmic reference.... is the triplet. It's the main component...

Here's an old example of up tempo swing... I know it's loose, but I just record and post...

[Scorch]

Lots of words. Will everyone who says they have it please upload a current recording here .

[AllanAllen]

Lots of words. Will everyone who says they have it please upload a current recording here .

Hahaha, are you new here?

[Scorch]

Been reading the forum for years, I love it here ! I also love where the rubber hits the road, let's hear it smooth bouncy swingers.

[pamosmusic]

Been reading the forum for years, I love it here ! I also love where the rubber hits the road, let's hear it smooth bouncy swingers.

I think Allen’s comment is that lots of people have posted lots of things in lots of places on the forum.

[mr. beaumont]

Yes! Finally time to measure our dicks!

Can't wait for everyone else's because music is a competition!

[pamosmusic]

OK I'll make it simple.... Generally the reason most can seem to swing at faster tempos.... is lack of technique.

Talk and play with professional drummers... and get into sub-dividing.

I have drummer friends too, Reg.

And honestly … your clip sounds great, but that elongated eighth note is a vibe. Sounds great but isn’t what a lot of great players sound like at that tempo* People can have very different feels and still swing (which you do).

for example … I also like your rhythmic accents and articulation … which is what I think most great players across the board are working with and which can make just about everything swing. Clark Terry is one of my absolute favorites and if you ask that dude about swing he’ll talk for hours about articulation and might not even get to the actual length of an eighth note.

The same masterclass I went to with Wynton, he was talking about how samba “swings.” It’s not just that elongated eighth note … it’s a drive in the rhythm that makes things swing. Theres something else going there besides note length.

* I sound like garbage at 280 so I guess what do I know.

[pamosmusic]

Yes! Finally time to measure our dicks!

Can't wait for everyone else's because music is a competition!

Heyooooooooo! This sounds awesome.

[ruger9]

Yes! Finally time to measure our dicks!

Can't wait for everyone else's because music is a competition!

Fan-f'ing-tastic! Love it! What axe you grinding there?

[Christian Miller]

Swing is basically about clarity and consistency of articulation coupled with a fine perception of where to place the important accents. For most of this requires particular attention to the upbeat.

It’s about making sure each note gets its due and is in precisely the right place.

What is the right place? Well you learn to feel that by learning the music by ear. Do it enough, singing lines etc, and you’ll feel it in your body. That’s the first step.

It’s not that hard to learn a basic functional swing feel. Mostly it’s about unlearning bad habits and false perceptions. There are levels and layers of it however.

[Christian Miller]

I remember a masterclass I went to w Wynton Marsalis and he kind of brushed off the idea of swing eighth notes and said he’d like to hear people work more on a swing quarter note. He cited Louis Armstrong, but in general the idea is kind of obvious and illuminating … what swings harder than a good walking bass?

(Of course good bassists play triplets and eighth notes from time to time too, but still)

Actually I feel that overuse of that clattery ‘bucket of dung’ stuff is a little bit of a crutch.

One great thing I read is that you also swing on the negative space. Louis’ quarters are not legato but not short either. Short, but fat. They are detached by a swing upbeats worth of space. This is something I learned to lean into when playing quarter note time as a rhythm player. It really works esp on electric. .

The position of the downbeat to my ears is a lot more context dependent and variable than the upbeat…

[AllanAllen]

I think Allen’s comment is that lots of people have posted lots of things in lots of places on the forum.

Not really, there’s a lot of talking and not a lot of money where the mouth is.

I used to think some of the most vocal never post, but I was wrong there.

Speaking of clips, there’s a stigma that if you do post you’ll be ridiculed out of the forum. Which I haven’t seen happen.

The worst that happened to me was Ragman said I didn’t know a head well enough and should have done another round of practice. Which was true.

[Christian Miller]

Oh you can play 8ths straight and late if you locked into the eight note pocket, but triplets need to be crisply articulated with the first note on the beat.

Push and pull. I love that about Barry’s swing

[emanresu]

Speaking of clips, there’s a stigma that if you do post you’ll be ridiculed out of the forum. Which I haven’t seen happen.

I've posted a few ones that were less than 50% ready. Not a single ridiculing happened.

[Christian Miller]

If I’ve learned one thing from early 80s pop

Ridicule is nothing to be scared of!