I think improvisation is overrated

[CliffR]

I thought I was computer-savvy, but spent a good hour this morning cursing YouTube because it had gotten attached to my work gmail account rather than my usual private one.

As for the neighbours, it's all quiet now, but I responded this morning to their 'EDM' with A Love Supreme on my MacBook. If it escalates tonight, I'm going to have to get my powered speakers involved. Along with some of my old scale practice. This is my top-rated vid at over 2k views:

[joelf]

I think it’s big and clever

actually you could build a whole approach to playing jazz just using quotes. Sometimes I wonder if that’s what Bird did and we just haven’t been able to track down where all the quotes come from….

I accompanied this great singer, Hadda Brooks. She sang The Man With the Horn, and I finally realized what everyone was quoting.

Wouldn't want to build a whole approach, and I doubt you meant that seriously. If something comes in the moment and it fits, cool. But it's no substitute for ideas...

[lawson-stone]

If anyone critiques me I'll kill 'em


(;

You just won the internet for me today.

I went to a NYE party last night wearing all black and a black/red tie. My wife said "You know your black shoulder holster and that shiny stainless steel pistol would really make that outfit sparkle...."

How I love that lady!

[lawson-stone]

You know, "sorry if you feel offended" is pretty much the definition of a non-apology. But in truth, I'm not offended. My playing is that of a struggling newb, and I'm fine with that and know that's the case. Pretty much every post I've made of my playing has included a request for criticism, and I'm grateful to those who've provided feedback. I don't recall you ever providing any. As for 'fishing', if somebody is kind enough to notice an improvement or something in my playing that appeals, it's always a pleasure to hear about it.

There's a wide spectrum of ability of folks on this forum, ranging from relative jazz beginners such as myself to serious professionals. I'm happy to receive notes from any, but only really value those from players who have posted their own stuff so I can gauge how much weight to place on their opinions. This is not to downgrade the thoughts of those who are more or less at the same level as myself. On the contrary, it's extremely valuable to hear the opinions of people in a similar position to me. (It goes without saying I hope that the opinions of experts are also extremely valuable.) Sounds like you and I have spent a similar amount of time learning jazz specifically and perhaps you have more experience prior to that in playing guitar in other genres. Great. Maybe you have constructive things to say to myself and others.

But let's hear you play. Not sure why you think the number of concerts you've worked on lighting lends you any authority. My brother's neighbour used to date Tom Baker, but that doesn't mean I know anything about time travel or Daleks.

Glad to hear though that you consider Martin Taylor 'bearable'.

As a middling player I have a policy that I just don't listen to talk about jazz playing from anyone who hasn't posted. Life is too short and there are too many voices claiming to know something. If someone advises me about money, I want them to be rich. I want to see the jet or yacht. If someone advises me about marriage, I want to see 50 years of happiness and a roomful of kids also happily married on the way to being good parents. If someone advises me about music, I want to see them using what they advise to make beautiful music.

Easy to talk. One guy was offended on here some years back because someone called him "All hat and no cattle" (An old cowboy insult). But that's what it is until some jazz playing (not chops from other genres) is put out there to illustrate.

I can type as good a solo as anyone. But on the guitar... well... not as articulate!

[joelf]

You could critique someone privately. I think that shows a little sensitivity and class.

I've done that when I had issues with a person's playing and they were sincere and asked for the criticism and to be helped. Why make someone uncomfortable in public?

On the other end of the spectrum: if you trash someone cruelly online, and I'm not saying it's done here---unless I haven't seen it---it's a public flogging and trolling, and some sensitive souls might not over it quickly or at all.

Best to be gentle, discreet and private...

[pamosmusic]

As a middling player I have a policy that I just don't listen to talk about jazz playing from anyone who hasn't posted. Life is too short and there are too many voices claiming to know something. If someone advises me about money, I want them to be rich. I want to see the jet or yacht. If someone advises me about marriage, I want to see 50 years of happiness and a roomful of kids also happily married on the way to being good parents. If someone advises me about music, I want to see them using what they advise to make beautiful music.

Easy to talk. One guy was offended on here some years back because someone called him "All hat and no cattle" (An old cowboy insult). But that's what it is until some jazz playing (not chops from other genres) is put out there to illustrate.

I can type as good a solo as anyone. But on the guitar... well... not as articulate!

I get that. But I’m not sure I always want money advice from the rich guy. Pretty easy to tell folks how to manage their money when you’ve always had a lot of it.

Theres an analog there for musical advice too.

Not to say you want music advice from a poor player or money advice from a broke college kid. But still.

[joelf]

You just won the internet for me today.

I went to a NYE party last night wearing all black and a black/red tie. My wife said "You know your black shoulder holster and that shiny stainless steel pistol would really make that outfit sparkle...."

How I love that lady!

'Up on Cripple Creek...she sends me....'

[docsteve]

I have posted a few times here but I have no burning desire to put up clips that I am not happy with to „receive honest criticism“ or just have the right to an opinion here.

I have noticed before that people with strong opinions have been pushed to post examples of their own playing. I don’t think you need to prove that you can play better than - well who actually? to earn the right to post a well-argued opinion here.

What about people who don’t have the ability to play any more, or lack the technical skills to post clips?

Finally, Bop head will understand me: du musst kein Schwein sein, um über Schnitzel zu reden.


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[mr. beaumont]

I thought I was computer-savvy, but spent a good hour this morning cursing YouTube because it had gotten attached to my work gmail account rather than my usual private one.

As for the neighbours, it's all quiet now, but I responded this morning to their 'EDM' with A Love Supreme on my MacBook. If it escalates tonight, I'm going to have to get my powered speakers involved. Along with some of my old scale practice. This is my top-rated vid at over 2k views:

I'm pretty sure I'd injure myself playing that guitar.

But I also like it

[RLetson]

Lawson, you might want to cut a little slack for those who enjoy conversations about the music (history, construction, appreciation) even if they don't perform it. I have been a reviewer for more than forty years--primarily of books, but for a while of music* without ever writing any fiction or performing music on a pro level--though often with pros, and for long enough to have grown a decent set of ears.

An analogous situation: I'm not really a poet** but I'm very good at teaching how to read poetry. (Extensive professional qualifications and experience.) The "you shouldn't comment if you don't do it" position reminds me of "those who can't, teach," which I can assure everyone ain't the case. On the other hand, I'm not about to critique the playing of anyone here, because in this environment, my role is audience, not mentor or instructor. (I might have analytical reactions, but I keep them to myself.)

* A dozen years, for Acoustic Guitar magazine.
** Though my first professional publication, about 60 years ago, was a poem.

[Christian Miller]

One of my favorite JGO comments is "He types a great solo!"

thats a classic Jack-ism, no?

[Christian Miller]

Lawson, you might want to cut a little slack for those who enjoy conversations about the music (history, construction, appreciation) even if they don't perform it. I have been a reviewer for more than forty years--primarily of books, but for a while of music* without ever writing any fiction or performing music on a pro level--though often with pros, and for long enough to have grown a decent set of ears.

An analogous situation: I'm not really a poet** but I'm very good at teaching how to read poetry. (Extensive professional qualifications and experience.) The "you shouldn't comment if you don't do it" position reminds me of "those who can't, teach," which I can assure everyone ain't the case. On the other hand, I'm not about to critique the playing of anyone here, because in this environment, my role is audience, not mentor or instructor. (I might have analytical reactions, but I keep them to myself.)

* A dozen years, for Acoustic Guitar magazine.
** Though my first professional publication, about 60 years ago, was a poem.

I find your posts to be really interesting otw - I think the none of contention is criticism of players from non-playing posters.

it’s all fair comment and free speech of course. But ones playing provides a context for any commentary offered.

On a personal note I realised I spent a lot of the 2010’s bitching about other players (in person but also on here no doubt). If I am to be honest, mostly because they were getting more gigs than me. (Hey it might not be just about the playing.)

Players do bitch about each other of course, but now I prefer to hold my tongue. At least try to. I don’t think it adds much. Even an attempt at good natured critique comes off a bit classless. (Well for me. Some get away with it because they are funny when they do it… ) My energy being better spent on you know, playing.

Look I’m learning slowly, ok?

(it’s not about being bland or liking everything uncritically either.)

[AllanAllen]

Lawson, you might want to cut a little slack for those who enjoy conversations about the music (history, construction, appreciation) even if they don't perform it. I have been a reviewer for more than forty years--primarily of books, but for a while of music* without ever writing any fiction or performing music on a pro level--though often with pros, and for long enough to have grown a decent set of ears.

An analogous situation: I'm not really a poet** but I'm very good at teaching how to read poetry. (Extensive professional qualifications and experience.) The "you shouldn't comment if you don't do it" position reminds me of "those who can't, teach," which I can assure everyone ain't the case. On the other hand, I'm not about to critique the playing of anyone here, because in this environment, my role is audience, not mentor or instructor. (I might have analytical reactions, but I keep them to myself.)

* A dozen years, for Acoustic Guitar magazine.
** Though my first professional publication, about 60 years ago, was a poem.

We've lost the narrative. This turn in conversation was started when BopHead said people here buy expensive guitars and then post videos of themselves playing badly, and that he can and does do it better.

It's that last part that starts the "oh yeah, then post a video of it." Nobody has to post anything to comment, but if you're going to throw shade and say you can do it better, well...

[Christian Miller]

I accompanied this great singer, Hadda Brooks. She sang The Man With the Horn, and I finally realized what everyone was quoting.

Wouldn't want to build a whole approach, and I doubt you meant that seriously. If something comes in the moment and it fits, cool. But it's no substitute for ideas...

Kind of semi seriously? Things like the High Society line a lot of people don’t realise that predates Bird, and quote it anyway as a bit of bop language. Or the ‘cool blues’ lick some say comes from Carmen… and then Klose exercise patterns (iirc) surface as well…

you know that sort of makes me wonder what else has ended up in the ‘bebop licks’ books that may have been pop culture references and quotes lost to the ages.

How much of Birds stuff isn’t quotes?

(it’s like the way the Goldberg Variations quotes Leipzig drinking songs now forgotten by all but the nerdiest musicologists. What Bach jokes do we not even know we’re missing?)

[mr. beaumont]

I think my goal for 2024 is to both put up and shut up more.

[AllanAllen]

I think my goal for 2024 is to both put up and shut up more.

I really like this one, I could do with a lot more of myself shutting up.

[lawson-stone]

I have posted a few times here but I have no burning desire to put up clips that I am not happy with to „receive honest criticism“ or just have the right to an opinion here.

I have noticed before that people with strong opinions have been pushed to post examples of their own playing. I don’t think you need to prove that you can play better than - well who actually? to earn the right to post a well-argued opinion here.

What about people who don’t have the ability to play any more, or lack the technical skills to post clips?

Finally, Bop head will understand me: du musst kein Schwein sein, um über Schnitzel zu reden.


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The point of posting clips is not to prove one is better, but to simply demonstrate whatever level one is at so that others can know how to take their advice. You don't have to to be a pig to talk about sausage, but if you tell people how to make sausage, you better have some good sausage for them to try.

[lawson-stone]

Lawson, you might want to cut a little slack for those who enjoy conversations about the music (history, construction, appreciation) even if they don't perform it. I have been a reviewer for more than forty years--primarily of books, but for a while of music* without ever writing any fiction or performing music on a pro level--though often with pros, and for long enough to have grown a decent set of ears.

An analogous situation: I'm not really a poet** but I'm very good at teaching how to read poetry. (Extensive professional qualifications and experience.) The "you shouldn't comment if you don't do it" position reminds me of "those who can't, teach," which I can assure everyone ain't the case. On the other hand, I'm not about to critique the playing of anyone here, because in this environment, my role is audience, not mentor or instructor. (I might have analytical reactions, but I keep them to myself.)

* A dozen years, for Acoustic Guitar magazine.
** Though my first professional publication, about 60 years ago, was a poem.

You're right of course. My point is when someone starts telling folks how to do something. They better have the goods. Teaching people to read poetry is very different from guiding them in writing poetry. I also agree that some very gifted teachers are not generally great practitioners, but that normally applies to non-artistic domains like sports. Would you take a sculpture class from someone who couldn't carve anything? The arts are a domain where teaching and practice swerve much closer together, in my view (I also could be full of it and have been in the past, so there's that!). Again, reviewing materials is not the same as instructing people about making the materials.

I love theory and history discussions and you are absolutely right, nobody has to be a good player to know a lot about those things. But for those who want to play, the advice and guidance needs to come from someone who can play. I would except, though, from that feedback about the music from an audience perspective. Discerning reviewers who are not players, but good listeners, have a lot to tell players about the effects of their music on listeners.

[joelf]

You're gonna have to figure out how to post a video first Joel . (Hit me up privately if I can help you with this.)

Please! I don't know how to edit them and just deleted the 2nd one, a lot of which was fine. And I stopped in the middle of a tune---LIVE! OK, maybe 3 people were watching, but still....

I need to learn how to do this. Someone here help me please...

[joelf]

You're gonna have to figure out how to post a video first Joel . (Hit me up privately if I can help you with this.)

PM sent, honcho.

And tank-a-you for the offer...

[emanresu]

I love theory and history discussions and you are absolutely right, nobody has to be a good player to know a lot about those things. But for those who want to play, the advice and guidance needs to come from someone who can play. I would except, though, from that feedback about the music from an audience perspective. Discerning reviewers who are not players, but good listeners, have a lot to tell players about the effects of their music on listeners.

Normal people tell how it seems/feels instead how it is supposed to feel compared to what you did there.
edit: for example. a normal listener said that my solo sounds like the usual "taadataadataada". big help right there

[lawson-stone]

Normal people tell how it seems/feels instead how it is supposed to feel compared to what you did there.
edit: for example. a normal listener said that my solo sounds like the usual "taadataadataada". big help right there

I don't know what you mean here.

[RLetson]

Teaching people to read poetry is very different from guiding them in writing poetry. I also agree that some very gifted teachers are not generally great practitioners, but that normally applies to non-artistic domains like sports.

Took a while for this to turn into a coherent reply, but it seems to be relevant. It's perhaps rambling and excessively autobiographical, but 3.5 weeks of Covid-enforced idleness makes a fellow garruous.

Way back in grad school, I was in a creative writing seminar with the late Thomas Kinsella. The course attracted a bunch of rather ambitious young would-be poets (I do not exclude myself). The first day, Tom went around the table and had each of us read a sample of our work. His response: "Perhaps we should spend the term reading some poems." Not ours, but poems from the standard repertory, which we walked through, with Tom inviting us to pay attention not so much to "technique" as to what I would call "honesty"--say, whether a line had earned the emotion it was attempting to evoke. The rigor of his reading--the insistence on seeing what the words actually meant when arranged in a particular way--changed the way I saw my own work and the way I taught my undergrad intro-to-poetry courses.

Another crucial seminar reinforced Tom's lessons. Edmund Epstein, whose specialties were James Joyce and linguistics, assembled a course in what he called "stylistics," which merged traditional prosody and rhetoric with linguistic analysis of the operation of natural language. The result was an analytical/descriptive approach that could reveal exactly what was going on in the construction of a line of verse--or of prose, for that matter. Eddie was also a fine pianist, and in the years that followed, I have come to see in his approach something of time as it is presented in musical notation. Certainly if I were to teach a poetry-intro course now, I would use both Eddie's technique and musical analogies in explaining how to perform a text.

I guess what I'm getting at here is that 1) Tom Kinsella "taught" poetry writing without reference to the usual generating machineries but by relentless interrogation of what a text was actually saying, and 2) non-poet Eddie Epstein devised an analytical machine that could serve any writer in need of a way of figuring out what was going on in the language of their work.

Post-Kinsella, I recognized that I was not going to be a very good poet, and I put that activity on the back burner. (The fifty-some intervening years have produced maybe a half-dozen I'm not embarrassed by.) But with the tools that Tom and Eddie gave me, I know I could conduct a first-level course in writing poetry--I know what the Real Thing sounds like and can explain how it works. Just as I serve as my wife's first reader and sometime editor, despite having no gift for writing fiction. (In fact, very few editors of my acquaintance are active writers of fiction. Non-fiction is a completely different beast.)

[AllanAllen]

Look at that, transcription and analysis in poetry.

[RLetson]

Actually, a version of transcribe/analyze was standard when I was an undergrad (we were reading poems on clay tablets), though it was entirely via classical prosody and rhetoric without the linguistics angle. (The semantics/semiotics side of poetry is a whole different set of concerns--also addressed by Eddie Epstein, but distinct from what I think of as the "music" side.)

What made Eddie's method so powerful was the way it could apply to prose--or ordinary (if aesthetically shaped) speech. And it helps to understand what a performer can do with anything from Shakespeare to an Ira Gershwin lyric--or rap, for that matter. And I've noticed that it affects the way I hear musical phrasing as well--one reason I find it useful to know the lyrics to tunes that have them.

But I'd better stop before I get to the "everything is everything" stage.