A Bit of Blues

[ragman1]

Well, I asked for that, I suppose, but this is a jazz place. I'm absolutely not a jazz snob, god forbid, but I do wonder sometimes whether jazz is surviving in a style or genre of its own. There seems to be so much of a drift towards rock or something like that. I mean, even Scofield does that now.

I don't actually care whether it's 'jazz' or not but, reading all the posts on the forum (not just on this thread), they do seem to be very centred on jazz talk. I put on Brad's vid and got hit with what sounded like serious rock/blues. Fair enough, the thread is 'A Bit Of Blues' but...

I know the jazzy sounds, as you put it, come from the effects of the various pentatonics and all that but it's not quite the same as when a jazz player does it. You should hear Barry Greene use pentatonics!

So, no, I'm not being the jazz police but let's put it this way, I'd like to hear those pents played over a jazz progression. From my perspective that would be more educational.

There's a thread at the moment about Bernstein and JVR playing together. I'd call them jazz players. I wouldn't put Robben and Larry in the same category even if some would.

[BradGuitar]

Well ragman1, I do hope this offering I serve up is a little more acceptable to your sensibilities…

[ragman1]

That's much better, you can go home early today. Thank you :-)

[ragman1]

To be honest, I know a little bit about pentatonics but I don't use them that much. There are some ideas that really work and others that don't work so well. The use of the dom b3 (eg. Bbm over G7alt) is probably overdone and isn't so effective as other ways. But pentatonics can give you that nice floaty sound which is effective on some modern tunes. It depends a lot on how they're played, of course.

A lot of instructional stuff isn't actually that simple. It involves changing the notes of a common pentatonic and learning something completely different from what you're used to. That's a bit of a pain. And then there's mixing them up so you're using about three different pentatonics in a couple of bars, or even just one bar.

Sorry if you already know all this. Not trying to be preachy.

[BradGuitar]

Thank Wes for that!

It’s almost like I posted a clip playing some type of blues, in a thread about playing the blues, where there were “no real parameters” as to what type of blues should be shared as stated by the OP…

My mistake…

[BradGuitar]

For the benefit of doubt, the first two vids I posted here (simple swing blues and Robben/Larry vibe blues) were actually for another forum, on a thread regarding using Super Locrian where the membership aren’t so clued up as it is here.

The “instructional” nature of the vids I posted was aimed at the folk there that are new to that sound and scale and was a way of sharing how the humble pentatonic, something that most of the people know, can get that sound without having their heads melted with new names/scale shapes etc which is where that particular thread was heading.

It certainly isn’t for anyone’s benefit here where the understanding of such ideas is a hell of a lot higher across the board. I just couldn’t be arsed re-editing videos to post here separately.

For what it’s worth, I think Larry is a jazz guitarist that branched out into other worlds (possibly to the detriment of his jazz playing?). Robben is a blues guy that heartily dipped his toes into the jazz world (certainly to the benefit of his blues playing). Sco? He’s always had a rock edge as far back as the mid 70’s. But I’ve already caused this argument elsewhere and not sure I can be arsed again

[ragman1]

Personally, about the only pentatonic I use as a matter of course is the blues one. So Fm over F7 etc but that gets old pretty quickly unless you're a genius improviser. I quite like playing a tone above a dom for floaty effects (Am over G7). But basically I find I get a lot more mileage out of scales and chord-based runs than pentatonics.

Forget editing old ones, do a fresh bit of blues for here!

[AllanAllen]

Well, I asked for that, I suppose, but this is a jazz place. I'm absolutely not a jazz snob, god forbid, but I do wonder sometimes whether jazz is surviving in a style or genre of its own. There seems to be so much of a drift towards rock or something like that. I mean, even Scofield does that now.

Um... you have heard of fusion right? Rock mixing with jazz is about 50 years old at this point.

[ragman1]

Of course I know, but jazz fusion is NOT the same as rock. Different feel and mood.

[John A.]

Great, but it's not jazz.

And there you have it. We now know the answer to the perpetually unanswerable "what is jazz?" -- everything besides whatever Ragman1 says isn't jazz is jazz. All hail the new arbiter.

[John A.]

Well, I asked for that, I suppose, but this is a jazz place. I'm absolutely not a jazz snob, god forbid, but I do wonder sometimes whether jazz is surviving in a style or genre of its own. There seems to be so much of a drift towards rock or something like that. I mean, even Scofield does that now.

I don't actually care whether it's 'jazz' or not but, reading all the posts on the forum (not just on this thread), they do seem to be very centred on jazz talk. I put on Brad's vid and got hit with what sounded like serious rock/blues. Fair enough, the thread is 'A Bit Of Blues' but...

I know the jazzy sounds, as you put it, come from the effects of the various pentatonics and all that but it's not quite the same as when a jazz player does it. You should hear Barry Greene use pentatonics!

So, no, I'm not being the jazz police but let's put it this way, I'd like to hear those pents played over a jazz progression. From my perspective that would be more educational.

There's a thread at the moment about Bernstein and JVR playing together. I'd call them jazz players. I wouldn't put Robben and Larry in the same category even if some would.

You should get out a bit more often. It's a big world out there.

[ragman1]

Good Xmas, John? Happy to be back in the swing of things again?

heh heh :-)

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Can I play too? Here….

[Peter C]

^That was beautiful Mark, loved the development and overall arrangement. Thanks for posting it.

Had time to listen to Jeff, too. Always worth it

[ragman1]

Thought I'd try this fairly trad version with some subs, etc. Did you know you could play E wholetone over E7? - E F# G# A# C D E. Nice, includes the b13 and the tritone.

[John A.]

Back down the blues-blues well again. No video this time (yet ...)

[ragman1]

Nice lines too :-)

[DawgBone]

You guys seem to favor using all your fingers for that 9 chord (and then miss the high E?). I always flatten my ring finger over the top 3. Makes for easier sliding 9ths, which is very useful when playing straight blues, which I understand most of you don't play, but it pays dividends for me.

[Bop Head]

You guys seem to favor using all your fingers for that 9 chord (and then miss the high E?). I always flatten my ring finger over the top 3. Makes for easier sliding 9ths, which is very useful when playing straight blues, which I understand most of you don't play, but it pays dividends for me.

And you can reach the 13th with your pinky on the 1st string. Think Sex Machine.

[DawgBone]

And you can reach the 13th with your pinky on the 1st string. Think Sex Machine.

Ah yes, that too! Thanks for mentioning. I find that the fewer fingers you need to grab a chord the more you can embellish. I am a thumb over the top guy and rarely play a standard barre chord. Often times on the standard 9th voicing I drop the middle and index completely and just barre the top three and let the bass player handle those low notes. Sliding 9ths=payday for a blues player. Sometimes I even descend chromatically to the next 9th as the chord change approaches. Or hammer the top 3 from the fret below it, also can provide a nice effect when done right.

[AllanAllen]

I feel like the high e is always in the soloists way when I grab it.

[DawgBone]

I feel like the high e is always in the soloists way when I grab it.

Use a 9th not in the same register the soloist is working? If you are sliding 9ths then it may help mitigate some of what you are experiencing.

[AllanAllen]

Use a 9th not in the same register the soloist is working? If you are sliding 9ths then it may help mitigate some of what you are experiencing.

Sliding 9ths a la Allman Brothers Stormy Monday? Yeah it’s too much for me. I feel like it cuts over the vocals and/or soloist when I do it. I feel like I’m in a weird spot of trying not to be heard but also playing the guitar.

There’s another guy out here and I swear he can play anything and he’s never in the way.

Of course, I asked him about it and he said to listen better.

[DawgBone]

Sliding 9ths a la Allman Brothers Stormy Monday? Yeah it’s too much for me. I feel like it cuts over the vocals and/or soloist when I do it. I feel like I’m in a weird spot of trying not to be heard but also playing the guitar.

There’s another guy out here and I swear he can play anything and he’s never in the way.

Of course, I asked him about it and he said to listen better.

Yes, sliding 9ths like Allman Bros or a bunch of Albert King songs. Just sliding up a whole step then back down once per measure at medium tempo shouldn't interfere with the vocals or soloist. I guess if he/she shoots you dirty looks you have a problem. Roll your volume down until you become a rhythm instrument. Lock in with the drummer. You might just need to develop a feel for it. I back my second guitarist using them all the time but granted we are loud and it's not jazz so there is that. If you played three blues songs and didn't do some sliding 9ths I would feel cheated as a listener but I live on them.

[AllanAllen]

Yes, sliding 9ths like Allman Bros or a bunch of Albert King songs. Just sliding up a whole step then back down once per measure at medium tempo shouldn't interfere with the vocals or soloist. I guess if he/she shoots you dirty looks you have a problem. Roll your volume down until you become a rhythm instrument. Lock in with the drummer. You might just need to develop a feel for it. I back my second guitarist using them all the time but granted we are loud and it's not jazz so there is that. If you played three blues songs and didn't do some sliding 9ths I would feel cheated as a listener but I live on them.

I do blues too. At the jams here I feel like most guys just strum. It’s rare to hear a Jimmy Reed kinda shuffle. Well, excepting that really good guy I mentioned.