Don't make this mistake playing pentatonics or scales. #Shorts

**jzucker** · 09-11-2023, 07:11 PM

If you start and / or end your phrases on the downbeat, you are playing lines the wrong way. Starting a line on the & of a beat, and not the downbeat gives your lines a sense of forward motion and propels music forward. Playing on the beat makes your playing sound flat and lifeless. Think of the way it sounds when someone is clapping to jazz but clapping on 1 & 3. That is the equivalent of starting a phrase on the downbeat.

This demo in this video is a small example, utilizing pentatonics that illustrate the way *NOT* to play a jazz phrase and way *TO* play a jazz phrase to get forward motion and a sense or pushing the music forward.

Guitar players are particularly bad about this but if you listen to Bird, Coltrane, Mccoy Tyner, Mike Brecker you will hear what I'm talking about.

The pdf file is located here: patreon.com/posts/wrong-way-89128920

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Jack

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**Bach5G** · 09-11-2023, 07:17 PM

Yes!

**sgcim** · 09-11-2023, 08:28 PM

Bill Evans started his lines on the downbeat of the second beat a lot.

**Christian Miller** · 09-12-2023, 05:05 AM

It’s almost like what’s a very useful bit of advice for student guitarists isn’t necessarily a cast iron feature of jazz masters?

**AllanAllen** · 09-12-2023, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

It’s almost like what’s a very useful bit of advice for student guitarists isn’t necessarily a cast iron feature of jazz masters?

Are you trying to say that every single piece of advice isn't the one true correct way to do things? If I can't memorize rules... how am I supposed know what to play? Do you expect me to just imagine music and play it? GOOD DAY SIR

**jzucker** · 09-12-2023, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by AllanAllen

Are you trying to say that every single piece of advice isn't the one true correct way to do things? If I can't memorize rules... how am I supposed know what to play? Do you expect me to just imagine music and play it? GOOD DAY SIR

you guys are a tough crowd. Theory and Rules are an after-the-fact analysis for what composers and improvisers play. There are no rules. The supposed "rules" are just observations. If it sounds good it *IS* good. However, listening to guitarists play continuous streams of 8th and 16th notes starting on downbeats indicates that it's worth some consideration of where you start and stop your phrasing.

Many folks hear Martino and SRV and copy the 8th notes or 16th notes without copping the feel of where they are placing the phrases.

This video was merely a fun/entertaining way of getting people to think about that stuff...

**mr. beaumont** · 09-12-2023, 10:57 AM

It's good practice. Do the greats do it all the time? Of course not. But the greats also always have a great sense of forward motion on their lines. Many beginners do not. Jack is offering a quick easy way to get there.

**pamosmusic** · 09-12-2023, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by AllanAllen

Are you trying to say that every single piece of advice isn't the one true correct way to do things? If I can't memorize rules... how am I supposed know what to play? Do you expect me to just imagine music and play it? GOOD DAY SIR

Im not really sure what you’re trying to say. But most of the time what folks tend to deride as “rules” are just really useful practice tools. Theory, for example, is a great way to take something that sounds good and extrapolate it out to see if it sounds good in other contexts.

If you just sit down and imagine music and play it then you’ll only be able to play what you imagine.

If you sit down and say “well that was interesting, what if I try starting all my phrases off the beat,” then next time you sit down to play whatever you imagine, you’ll be imagining phrases that start in different places. Will they all start off the beat? Nope. But then, I kind of doubt that’s the point of the video. Variety is the spice of life.

**pamosmusic** · 09-12-2023, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

It's good practice. Do the greats do it all the time? Of course not. But the greats also always have a great sense of forward motion on their lines. Many beginners do not. Jack is offering a quick easy way to get there.

Oh. Jinx.

**mr. beaumont** · 09-12-2023, 11:04 AM

I think Allan was being a bit facetious/funny in his post.

**pamosmusic** · 09-12-2023, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I think Allan was being a bit facetious/funny in his post.

Probably true. But not sure in which direction the sarcasm was pointed.

[shrugs]

**jzucker** · 09-12-2023, 11:18 AM

Someone mentioned Miles. If you listen to Miles on So What, he starts a lot of the phrases on the & of a beat. He also starts a lot of phrases on 2 or 4 which is also strong. What's not strong is starting *EVERY* phrase on 1 or 3 which i hear a lot ...

**mr. beaumont** · 09-12-2023, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

Someone mentioned Miles. If you listen to Miles on So What, he starts a lot of the phrases on the & of a beat. He also starts a lot of phrases on 2 or 4 which is also strong. What's not strong is starting *EVERY* phrase on 1 or 3 which i hear a lot ...

Miles' solo on So What is probably THE masterclass in phrasing. It's unbelievably perfect.

**AllanAllen** · 09-12-2023, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

Probably true. But not sure in which direction the sarcasm was pointed.

[shrugs]

I was agreeing with Christian that not everything is iron clad, but in a very sarcastic way. I'm not sure where it was pointed. Just being a little silly.

**AllanAllen** · 09-12-2023, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

you guys are a tough crowd. Theory and Rules are an after-the-fact analysis for what composers and improvisers play. There are no rules. The supposed "rules" are just observations. If it sounds good it *IS* good. However, listening to guitarists play continuous streams of 8th and 16th notes starting on downbeats indicates that it's worth some consideration of where you start and stop your phrasing.

Many folks hear Martino and SRV and copy the 8th notes or 16th notes without copping the feel of where they are placing the phrases.

This video was merely a fun/entertaining way of getting people to think about that stuff...

Sorry, I was goofing around.

**Christian Miller** · 09-12-2023, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by AllanAllen

Are you trying to say that every single piece of advice isn't the one true correct way to do things? If I can't memorize rules... how am I supposed know what to play? Do you expect me to just imagine music and play it? GOOD DAY SIR

BY WHOSE RULES DO YOU PLAY THE GUITAR SIR????

(To paraphrase)

**pamosmusic** · 09-12-2023, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by djg

this is probably my favourite solo in the whole world. the phrasing and the build-up is perfect. this is what benson meant when he said you couldnt out-swing and you couldnt out-sweet grant.

Clifford on this one:

**teeps** · 09-13-2023, 03:51 PM

Thank you for the phrasing tip Jack. Its all about being aware, isn't it?

**jzucker** · 09-13-2023, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by teeps

Thank you for the phrasing tip Jack. Its all about being aware, isn't it?

Right. Rules are meant to be broken and rules are for engineering, not art. Still, it's a good thing to think about. Oddly, this clip has generated so much hate, lol.