bVII chord as backdoor turnaround and/or functional V7 chord?

[buduranus2]

I'm an intermediate level player. Lately I've developed a preference for a melodic minor whole tone sequece over a iv minor chord resolving to the tonic (i.e. Fm > C.) I'm looking to understand what I'm doing. Is this a iv > I move, a bVII > I move, both or neither?

[pamosmusic]

I'm an intermediate level player. Lately I've developed a preference for a melodic minor whole tone sequece over a iv minor chord resolving to the tonic (i.e. Fm > C.) I'm looking to understand what I'm doing. Is this a iv > I move, a bVII > I move, both or neither?

Probably just what it is. That minor iv to I thing is old school and sounds beautiful. In that context, the min6 chord sounds awesome and the min7 never quite sounds right—probably because of the prominent placement of the tonic chord’s minor third in an unusual voiceleading.

If it’s part of the back door cadence, then I always think the Bb7(#11) sound is the money. So when I find myself playing over a minor iv chord, I tend to favor melodic minor too when I’m playing something stepwise.

Anyway … sometimes things can just be what they are. And when you end up looking for theoretical justifications for things, most of the time you end up at the voiceleading anyway. By which I mean, that melodic minor sound is nice because E is a common tone with the C major that comes next. And Ab pulls down to G, or maybe up to A in a major 6 chord etc etc.

So use your ears and use the theory just to find it again later. Don’t sweat too much on why it works as long as your ear tells you it does.

[pamosmusic]

And I guess the answer is that it’s just a iv to I because that’s what the chords are.

But the F min/maj7 and the Bb7(#11) sound nice going to C major for the same reasons.

[Reg]

yea typically... it's just the Parallel Minor. The F-7 becomes the IV- chord of C-. through... Borrowing, Relative or Modal interchange

Cma7 is tonic.... or Ima chord
F-...... or IV-.... is from common borrowing or Modal Interchange. Cmaj becomes Cmin... the Parallel Min. chord, and then Fmin is the diatonic VI- chord of Cmin. (new key of Ebma)

Cmin becomes a VImi chord and Fmi becomes the II- chord.

II- is usually Dorian and MM is common modal interchange mode with Dorian. (F- becomes F-ma7 from MM and the implied V7 chord ... the resulting II- V7 using that F- becomes F- to Bb7#11 etc...

Kind of like how Har. Min. is common use with Aeolian min.

Use of Borrowing, both Relative and Parallel are standard harmonic common practice.

[buduranus2]

Probably just what it is. That minor iv to I thing is old school and sounds beautiful. In that context, the min6 chord sounds awesome and the min7 never quite sounds right—probably because of the prominent placement of the tonic chord’s minor third in an unusual voiceleading.

If it’s part of the back door cadence, then I always think the Bb7(#11) sound is the money. So when I find myself playing over a minor iv chord, I tend to favor melodic minor too when I’m playing something stepwise.

Anyway … sometimes things can just be what they are. And when you end up looking for theoretical justifications for things, most of the time you end up at the voiceleading anyway. By which I mean, that melodic minor sound is nice because E is a common tone with the C major that comes next. And Ab pulls down to G, or maybe up to A in a major 6 chord etc etc.

So use your ears and use the theory just to find it again later. Don’t sweat too much on why it works as long as your ear tells you it does.

Thank you for your reply. Yes, minor 6th here. On further thought, isn't this in the realm of the "three in one" chord? That is Fmi6 is Dmi7b5 is (rootless) Bb9. So for me, the most natural move is Bb9 > CMaj7. I tried Bb7#11 but couldn't really hear it somehow.

[pamosmusic]

Thank you for your reply. Yes, minor 6th here. On further thought, isn't this in the realm of the "three in one" chord? That is Fmi6 is Dmi7b5 is (rootless) Bb9. So for me, the most natural move is Bb9 > CMaj7. I tried Bb7#11 but couldn't really hear it somehow.

Sure but lots of chords fall into that category. Is that CM7 or Amin9? The bass is going to go a long way toward telling you what the prevailing harmony is, but you’re right in that any one of those chords would function the same way. I’ll Be Seeing You sometimes ends with a iim7b5 - I.

But if the bass player is playing a Bb, whatever voicing you play is going to sound like an extended Bb going to C major.

On whether or not that Bb7 chord sounds good, you have to search for the voicings. Nothing sounds good with bad voiceleading, and just about anything can work if the voiceleading is good.

[buduranus2]

yea typically... it's just the Parallel Minor. The F-7 becomes the IV- chord of C-. through... Borrowing, Relative or Modal interchange

Cma7 is tonic.... or Ima chord
F-...... or IV-.... is from common borrowing or Modal Interchange. Cmaj becomes Cmin... the Parallel Min. chord, and then Fmin is the diatonic VI- chord of Cmin. (new key of Ebma)

Cmin becomes a VImi chord and Fmi becomes the II- chord.

II- is usually Dorian and MM is common modal interchange mode with Dorian. (F- becomes F-ma7 from MM and the implied V7 chord ... the resulting II- V7 using that F- becomes F- to Bb7#11 etc...

Kind of like how Har. Min. is common use with Aeolian min.

Use of Borrowing, both Relative and Parallel are standard harmonic common practice.

This is very helpful. I had to look up "modal interchange" and now your reply is easier for me to grasp. Same with "parallel modes." There's a lot for me to unpack here. Thanks for this!

[Christian Miller]

Thank you for your reply. Yes, minor 6th here. On further thought, isn't this in the realm of the "three in one" chord? That is Fmi6 is Dmi7b5 is (rootless) Bb9. So for me, the most natural move is Bb9 > CMaj7. I tried Bb7#11 but couldn't really hear it somehow.

#11 is often from the melody - Cherokee is a good example

Barry harris always said - don’t feel you have to play #11 there. He was big on the Fm6 —> Dm7b5 —> Bb7. This key. If you are thinking in these terms I think that’s a good. You can of course use the m6-dim, but that’s another epic thread haha.

The #11/E is common in standards because standards melodies are usually highly diatonic, with chromatic chords in harmony. Otoh when we solo we are playing the changes. It’s kind of up to us. Note to self - need to look into this with bird etc.

[Tal_175]

You can also see it as the modal interchange of the relative minor.
In the key of C, the relative minor is A minor. Modal interchange to A harmonic minor gives you the V chord E7alt. Bb7 is the tritone of E7alt.

If you treat E7alt as the altered scale then you get F melodic minor. Alternatively F minor can be thought of as just the ii of Bb7.

[Christian Miller]

To be honest I tend to look at this way.

It’s quite good to sit down at the piano and just plug in chords that have an Ab/G#. I think on the guitar we tend to lose track of the absolute pitches and key degrees and focus on intervals over chords and subs and so on. There’s only twelve notes even if we call them a million things.

A harmonic minor contains an Fm6 chord by the way (mispelled F G# C D). The Bb is a common alteration to the A minor tonality….
so yeah?

I think the Cm think actually works a lot less than one would think at first blush. It can work though, but it’s not the basic sound if that makes any sense.

Also bear in mind that even in minor we often use a IVm6-dim or IV melodic minor sound (disguised as a IIm7b5 locrian #2 sound.)

[buduranus2]

But if the bass player is playing a Bb, whatever voicing you play is going to sound like an extended Bb going to C major.

On whether or not that Bb7 chord sounds good, you have to search for the voicings. Nothing sounds good with bad voiceleading, and just about anything can work if the voiceleading is good.

Thank you for reminding me about the bass's role in determining what to call a chord with multiple (potential) names. IOW "the context." Your perspective on voice leading is well-taken.

[buduranus2]

You can also see it as the modal interchange of the relative minor.
In the key of C, the relative minor is A minor. Modal interchange to A harmonic minor gives you the V chord E7alt. Bb7 is the tritone of E7alt.

If you treat E7alt as the altered scale then you get F melodic minor. Alternatively F minor can be thought of as just the ii of Bb7.

Well, as I said in my OP I'm just an intermediate level player. That said, your perspective is fascinating. It's like taking the scenic route. I do understand the relationship between E7 altered and F melodic minor (same notes.) But the way you got there was a trip! Speaking of which, the old slogan for Cunard was:

[Christian Miller]

And that’s why you can play Fm6 or if it floats your boat, C+ or Fm(maj7) and so on Abmaj7#5 (EDIT actually that one has too many common tones to sound like a conclusive cadence)

That way, the bass plays D, Bb or F ‘I got this’

its all the same cadence contrapuntally. Ab-G, C-C, F-E with extra notes for taste. Pretty tight!

The bass can bass … And that’s without getting into the F melodic minor even.

Otoh if you get a B, it’s a different vibe…

And that’s where you get interesting stuff like Abo7(maj7) and G13b9, chords you wouldn’t necessarily associate with that world, but there they all are, one Ab/G# away from C.

Barry Hardis eight note Major 6-dim scale adds that note the major scale rather than replaces another note, meaning we have both that C harmonic major and A harmonic minor world lurking there alongside C major.

[buduranus2]

Also bear in mind that even in minor we often use a IVm6-dim or IV melodic minor sound (disguised as a IIm7b5 locrian #2 sound.)

Couple of things. First, I'm still working on H/W and W/H diminished, although I'm quite comfortable with diminished arpeggios. They seem to work whenever I'm not sure what note to play next. Secondly, I alluded to the "three in one" chord concept earlier in the reply chain. So in your example here, Fmi6=Dmi7b5 (=rootless Bb9) Conceptually the Fmi6 is the easiest for me, but the Bb9 > Cmaj7 move is an easier grip.

[wolflen]

Thank you for your reply. Yes, minor 6th here. On further thought, isn't this in the realm of the "three in one" chord? That is Fmi6 is Dmi7b5 is (rootless) Bb9. So for me, the most natural move is Bb9 > CMaj7. I tried Bb7#11 but couldn't really hear it somehow.

You can extend this to a "four in one chord" type thinking add E7#5b9 (no root) coming out of diminished scale thinking (b9) E7b9 G7b9 Bb7b9 Db7b9

so the Bb7#11 (Bb7b5) = E7b5 G7b5 Db7b5 ( note the flat five relations Bb&E Db&G) experiment a bit and you will find some nice ways to get to CMA7and friends

using some symmetric harmony and a bit of voice leading on altered chords and seeing their relationship along the way

[Christian Miller]

Couple of things. First, I'm still working on H/W and W/H diminished, although I'm quite comfortable with diminished arpeggios. The seem to work whenever I'm not sure what note to play next. Secondly, I alluded to the "three in one" chord concept earlier in the reply chain. So in your example here, Fmi6=Dmi7b5 (=rootless Bb9) Conceptually the Fmi6 is the easiest for me, but the Bb9 > Cmaj7 move is an easier grip.

If you are running Barry Harris stuff that’s what he’d recommend. Bb7 (mixolydian) dominant scale, with all the chords and so on that are in it. The most important being Bb(7), Ab(maj7) and Fm(6)

The Fm sounds (he used m6-dim but that includes melodic minor) are the next rung up, and take you a little more into intriguing territory without being a huge change.

But I’d keep it simple, simple stuff can be incredibly powerful. Triads for example.

Make sure practice Fm triad into C.
keep it simple

Later add in other notes if you like.

Also Fm into Em (cmaj7)

If you are still asking about things like back doors, I wouldn’t bother practicing the diminished for the minute. It’s very cool, but it’s exotic - icing, not cake, and as I’ve alluded to a surprising number of the sounds can be found in other places.

Dim scales are a door that you can walk through, not the basic solution to anything in basic standards harmony. There are even more natural sounding options for dim chords.

[pamosmusic]

Well, as I said in my OP I'm just an intermediate level player. That said, your perspective is fascinating. It's like taking the scenic route. I do understand the relationship between E7 altered and F melodic minor (same notes.) But the way you got there was a trip! Speaking of which, the old slogan for Cunard was:

Yeah all Tal’s stuff there is cool, and the scenic route is a nice way of putting it. He’s giving you different palettes to play around with. Just take one sound at a time and see what you like. It’s the scenic route … lots of ways to get there, but you can only take one at a time. Eventually you’ll get to everything (or not, but whatever.)

[Tal_175]

Well, as I said in my OP I'm just an intermediate level player. That said, your perspective is fascinating. It's like taking the scenic route. I do understand the relationship between E7 altered and F melodic minor (same notes.) But the way you got there was a trip! Speaking of which, the old slogan for Cunard was:

Lol. Yes, I see why this may seem convoluted. But as Christian said F minor can also be build from A harmonic minor (eliminating the last step ).
The A harmonic minor connection actually runs deeper. E7 and it's tritone Bb7 share the same diminished scale as the original dominant of the key of C, namely G7 and it's tritone Db7. Guess what that diminished scale is? F diminished. Sorry, I'm getting carried away again.

Some people call the F minor in this context the subdominant minor. Other chords diatonic to F MM such as Dmin7b5 and Abaug also become harmonic choices.

[Christian Miller]

The Eb is cadentially quite useful. It’s nice to play Abmaj7-C on this type of change because of the contrary motion Ab-G Eb-E. rather than Abmaj7#5-C which has lots of common tones - too many too sound like it’s moving. I always like that sound.

Bb9sus4 —> Cmaj7 is cool albeit a little pop-funk haha.

See also why G7-Cmaj7 sucks in cadences (but not in extended back-cycling progressions.) not all situations are alike.

[Christian Miller]

Lol. Yes, I see why this may seem convoluted. But as Christian said F minor can also be build from A harmonic minor (eliminating the last step ).
The A harmonic minor connection runs actually deeper. E7 and it's tritone Bb7 share the same diminished scale as the original dominant of the key of C, namely G7 and it's tritone Db7. Guess what that diminished scale is? F diminished. Sorry, I'm getting carried away again.

Some people call the F minor in this context the subdominant minor. Other chords diatonic to F MM such as Dmin7b5 and Abaug also become harmonic choices.

Fdim7 is of course also found in the harmonic minor

That’s what I mean by doors.

Also a there’s something I call the subdominant or IV complex which you can use as a basis for a great deal of your basic changes playing. You can get a lot of great stuff just by taking a diatonic IV chord and flattening notes in it.

Fmaj7–>Fm(maj7)—>Fo(maj7) for example. Then resolve to Em7

Then Peter will dutifully write down ‘Dm9 Dm9b5 G13b9 Cmaj9’ when he hears the bass haha

Doesnt have to be that order. F7 gives you a G9b13 sound. F7b5 edges you into the whole tone realm for example.

And so on. But it’s mostly in the semitones - B/C F/E and with chromatics add more Ab/G,
Eb/E etc. Mi fa as Bach said.

(Of course you can also go the other way, but that’s another story.)

[pingu]

My head hurts now ....

[buduranus2]

The Eb is cadentially quite useful. It’s nice to play Abmaj7-C on this type of change because of the contrary motion Ab-G Eb-E. rather than Abmaj7#5-C which has lots of common tones - too many too sound like it’s moving. I always like that sound.

Bb9sus4 —> Cmaj7 is cool albeit a little pop-funk haha.

See also why G7-Cmaj7 sucks in cadences (but not in extended back-cycling progressions.) not all situations are alike.

Abmaj7#5 is not in my immediate future. Not sure what I'd do with a chord like that, given the basic structures I'm able to play (Great American Songbook, some Sonny Rollins heads and simpler "jazz" tunes.) The Bb9sus4 > Cmaj7 seems like its something I've heard from Earth Wind & Fire. As for G7 > Cmaj7, I'd prefer Fmaj/G or, in the alternative, G7altered > Cmaj6.

As for "back cycling" this is a new concept for me. I'm currently reading the thread on it here: How To Practice And Apply Back Cycling On Guitar

[Reg]

Yea... one can do just about anything, label etc.... But what one should do is have a reference.... which comes from an analysis.
An analysis take all the info.... harmonic, melodic rhythmic etc... and you have labels with tell you how the chords, reflecting melody and all the other BS are working, (functioning if one likes), and that would create a musical road map from which one would decide what your playing should reflect. Also if your playing or performing with other musicians... they also would have that Reference.... and you might even be on the same page.

Generally at gigs etc.... if not already determined.... you do a head arrangement of the tune which would reflect an analysis... or at least some type of agreement etc.

I hear and see all kinds of train wrecks with musicians when performing....

Anyway.... there are always many choices from which to create labels or what should be played. But generally it works better with musically organized choices. Not just what one might be feeling or hearing. Although... I follow many musicians down some muddy roads. It's not fun.

I need to say ... the whole voice leading and many traditional compositional and performance techniques. Well they suck, they're boring and really pound that vanilla thing. Unless your audience is bunch of amateur musicians or non jazz etc... I mean yes one should know and be able to hear contrapuntal basics. But go to the practice rooms...

They are a reference, they're already implied. They've been pounded into us for centuries. Most don't really get that excited etc... it's like watching paint dry. I'm getting sleepy....ZZZZZZZZ

Sorry...

[buduranus2]

Yea... one can do just about anything, label etc.... But what one should do is have a reference.... which comes from an analysis.
An analysis take all the info.... harmonic, melodic rhythmic etc... and you have labels with tell you how the chords, reflecting melody and all the other BS are working, (functioning if one likes), and that would create a musical road map from which one would decide what your playing should reflect. Also if your playing or performing with other musicians... they also would have that Reference.... and you might even be on the same page.

I've been mildly derided elsewhere as a CST guy, which I am. But I'm also a blues guy, which is the foundational linguistics of jazz, R&B and rock 'n' roll. As for analysis, if I didn't value that I wouldn't have started this thread. That said, I've heard some hyper-technical guys who are so far advanced that I couldn't begin to process what they were playing. But on those specific occasions it came across as all head, no heart.

[buduranus2]

Fdim7 is of course also found in the harmonic minor

That’s what I mean by doors.

Also a there’s something I call the subdominant or IV complex which you can use as a basis for a great deal of your basic changes playing. You can get a lot of great stuff just by taking a diatonic IV chord and flattening notes in it.

As I may have mentioned further up the reply chain, diminished arpeggios are my "get out of jail free card." So, on your example, mixolydian b6b9 is a mode of harmonic minor that I use over a dominant sixth chord (i.e. G7b9 > C.) Lately I've been trying to incorporate a more linear approach to add a little more variation and continuity.

Also, I've been exploring the various IV chord possibilities, given my limited frame of reference.