Inner Urge bridge

[Jcguitar335]

Hi guys, I’m interested to hear your thoughts/approaches to the bridge of inner urge. I’m working on it at the moment and finding it hard to not repeat the same patterns on each chord. Anyone got any advice? Tia

[grahambop]

You can play minor pentatonic a half step below, e.g. Ebm pent gives an Emaj#11 sound.

Also on each pair of chords you can play the relative minor then major, i.e. Dbm on the E chord then Dbmaj on the Db chord (and continue respectively for the rest of the sequence).

(I got both these ideas from a Jerry Bergonzi video).

[grahambop]

As it happens I’ve been looking at this tune too (i.e. the last 8 bars - probably after seeing that video) so a couple of things I thought of trying are:

Start each phrase on a different interval (of the underlying chord) so you don’t just play the same pattern moving around in line with the chords.

Also the chords are basically descending so you could try to play phrases which ascend. Start each one on a higher note than the previous one, for example.

[Hugo Gainly]

Sounds like you're just thinking of what goes where theoretically and doing the same through the chords - no wonder it sounds the same.

Why not listen and sing something that sounds good? (Even if you can't sing it will give you the distance you need to be creative). I bet you don't sing the same thing for each chord.

Record the chords at a slower tempo and sing along to it and record that.

You can then analyse your 'solo' in terms of chord/scale stuff so you can replicate it, and maybe even develop it at a later stage. Start with a few notes and some good rests and avoid the siren call of solo 'bloat'.

(I got both these ideas from a Jerry Bergonzi video).

I've been doing that trick for years, it's great. In fact it's pretty much the only thing left I CAN do in my transition from ballpark jazz guitarist to someone who owns some guitars. I got it from Steve Khan's books, probably Pentatonic Khancepts.

Back to Inner Urge - from memory the tune over last 4 descending chords does roughly what you refer to and still sounds good. The first section seems to be pairs of chords with similar amended phrases showing the changes - that's another way).

But I'm sure what Joe Henderson didn't do was think chords, he thought melody in the particular context.

[Jcguitar335]

Thanks both for your insights. I am aware of the approaches you suggested and can get some nice ideas going at slower tempos. I’m just in that phase of slowly cranking the metronome and was curious how everyone else approaches it. Earlier I found some nice sus4 arpeggios you can shift around and get some rhythmic things going on the bridge, again this was at a slower tempo but sounded ‘modern’ with the wide quartal sound. Is it just me or is it always a struggle getting 4ths going fluently at tempo?!

[ccroft]

The tune is too damn fast :-)

Been working it for at least a year on and off. I have more fun blowing when I drop the last 8. It actually works pretty well. I don't think the other guys will take you seriously if you suggest that though.

4ths are good because... McCoy on the original! Takes some work to get them fluent on guitar. A little work on Freedom Jazz Dance can help.

Also, consider playing them on the same string with a stretch. I can pick 2 notes per string with a hop in between better than I can pick one note per string. That's me anyways. Gets better higher up the neck of course.

[Christian Miller]

I was going to do a video on this

So obviously practice the major 7 arps. 1-2-3-5 tetrachords and pentatonics are also useful.

but you might want to try the tetrachord on the 5th - for example B C# D# F# on Emaj7

So B/E Ab/Db A/D F#/B G/C E/A Bb7#11 Gmaj7

Adam Rogers does this - the zen master of sounding relaxed and smooth over the toughest progressions.

i find by keeping the note pool limited I can keep things more open.

I think this is true for any non functional fast moving progression. Identify the notes that key into the chord sound fast and then run those through the progression.

[Christian Miller]

The other thing I like to practice is maj7 inversions ascending through the progression. It works well if you do this type of thing

Ema7 root
C#ma7 Dma7 1st inversion
Bma7 Cma7 2nd inversion
Ama7 G7 3rd inversion
Gmaj7 root

notice the pattern - you are going up to the next inversion each time, so start on each inversion and work on your drops. Good way to spend 15m. I’ll do a quick vid for this maybe

[Jcguitar335]

Awesome, love those ideas! I will give them a go in the shed tomorrow and report back! Thanks

Christian, I love Adam Rogers! Are you aware of any recordings of him playing on this tune?


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[rpjazzguitar]

I like the suggestion of strumming and scat singing.

To amplify that a bit:

If pure singing doesn't work maybe this would help.

Start with the root movement on whole notes. Sing that while you strum.

Then make it half notes. That requires one more note in each bar. Or just play two notes in the odd numbered bars and leave the evens with a whole note. Or something. Keep fiddling with it.

Sooner or later, you're going to have a snippet of melody. You can recycle it as a lick for each chord, or keep building on it.

When you're done you'll have a melodic line that's right out of your musical sense and not out of the math of theory.

But, if you get stuck and want to use theory, earlier posts have some excellent ideas.

I'd add this: Take Emaj7#11. E lydian, which has the same notes as Bmaj.

Now, a bit of Warren Nunes. He says that Bmaj7=D#m7=F#maj7=G#m7.

So, over the Emaj7#11 you can play any of those chords or arps.

Same logic, applied to Dbma7#11 leads to: Abmaj7=Cm7=Ebmaj7=Fm7.

Now you can pick any chord from the first list and follow it with any chord in the second list. Get a backing track, slow it down, and maybe use a note or two over each substitute chord. Look for notes that are consonant over either chord. You can always add harmonic and melodic complexity later.

Will it be music? That depends on your line, but you shouldn't have clams.

[ccroft]

mmmmm. I think I want to have clams. Maybe Pasta Vongole for me tonight!

[Hugo Gainly]

Another thing that occurs to me:

Most soloists play theoretically 'correct' stuff when they see a chord. This can be very 'blocky' and lead you into the problem you outlined no matter how 'correct' the notes are.

Try and play 'over the join' when a chord changes, which is where most intermediate players fall down, or avoid. Things change at that point, where you outline harmonic progression. A note can change or sustain across the divide and take on a different function, à la pedal.

(I got that from Adrian Ingram who used to run Leeds College of Music Jazz Guitar Dept. and he knows, you know).

[Christian Miller]

Awesome, love those ideas! I will give them a go in the shed tomorrow and report back! Thanks

Christian, I love Adam Rogers! Are you aware of any recordings of him playing on this tune?


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This is what I’ve been going on

[grahambop]

I’ve been listening to this great version by Kurt:

[garybaldy]

I like the suggestion of strumming and scat singing.

To amplify that a bit:

If pure singing doesn't work maybe this would help.

Start with the root movement on whole notes. Sing that while you strum.

Then make it half notes. That requires one more note in each bar. Or just play two notes in the odd numbered bars and leave the evens with a whole note. Or something. Keep fiddling with it.

Sooner or later, you're going to have a snippet of melody. You can recycle it as a lick for each chord, or keep building on it.

When you're done you'll have a melodic line that's right out of your musical sense and not out of the math of theory.

But, if you get stuck and want to use theory, earlier posts have some excellent ideas.

I'd add this: Take Emaj7#11. E lydian, which has the same notes as Bmaj.

Now, a bit of Warren Nunes. He says that Bmaj7=D#m7=F#maj7=G#m7.

So, over the Emaj7#11 you can play any of those chords or arps.

Same logic, applied to Dbma7#11 leads to: Abmaj7=Cm7=Ebmaj7=Fm7.

Now you can pick any chord from the first list and follow it with any chord in the second list. Get a backing track, slow it down, and maybe use a note or two over each substitute chord. Look for notes that are consonant over either chord. You can always add harmonic and melodic complexity later.

Will it be music? That depends on your line, but you shouldn't have clams.

So is the E# (F) note in the F#maj7 ok over the Emaj7#11 (E lydian)? Thanks

[Christian Miller]

I’ve been listening to this great version by Kurt:

Yeah I’ve transcribed bits of this… a bit more fire and even risk compared to AR’s level of absolute chilled mastery. KR is an exciting player esp live, but AR has that zen thing as I’ve mentioned. So different.

Pertinent to the discussion - In the bits I’ve looked at Kurt tends towards major seventh chord tones and pentatonics, sometimes on the 5th. Probs not too different pitches wise…. For example;


Transcription here for the interested but lazy haha. Tbh you get a fantastic look at his left hand in the video anyway, which is great for technique. But in pertinent to rpj’s aural approach - I think singing someone else’s lines on a tune is a great way to get started.

Kurt does play scalar passing tones between chord tones, but his approach is pretty straightforward, as I think one needs to be on progressions like this (unless you plan to drive a truck through them.) also notice he doesn’t play every single chord, but drops in and out, so the phrasing is not dictated by the prog. EDIT: Actually he does a bit more on rexamination - a few #11's and stuffs.

Here's another line a little more what I described - notice it starts on the second chord, Dbmaj7. Notice also the 'cry me a river' line on Bb7.

BTW these examples are notated at piano pitch, not guitar, so you'll be reading an octave higher than normal.

I would tend towards that approach rather than full on scales, but I’m sure there’s players who do that too. Holdsworth maybe?

[rpjazzguitar]

So is the E# (F) note in the F#maj7 ok over the Emaj7#11 (E lydian)? Thanks

That's a good point. Although any note can work in a strong enough line, that one would be tough to use. I may have stretched Warren's theory a little too far there. Still, the other three notes in the chord will work. Maybe that should be an F#7 (F# A# C# D); those will work over Elyd.

[grahambop]

Re. Kurt, I only realised quite recently that I actually saw him at Ronnie Scotts back in the early 90s. We went to see Paul Motian’s Electric Bebop Band, he had 2 excellent guitarists who had funny names who I didn’t know at the time.

Of course now I realise it was Kurt and (most likely) Brad Shepik (or Schoeppach as he was known then). Joshua Redman was on sax.

It was a fantastic gig, I remember that much. Both guitarists used some delay effects, yet somehow contrived to comp simultaneously behind Joshua and it sounded amazing.

Didn’t hurt having Paul Motian on drums either, I was surprised how powerful he was (I’d only heard him on the Bill Evans trio records).

[Christian Miller]

I need to get properly into the EBB. Two of my favourite guitar players, and one all time great on drums. Also Joshua is no slouch innit.

[Christian Miller]

Holdwsorth transcription here.

Allan does indeed opt for a more scalic approach (which is how it sounded to me) with some typically Allan twists (added notes to scales, use of guitar fretboard ideas and so on)

One thing I notice right away - the ignoring of the Bb7 chord at bar 47 over which he plays a straight C major (who knew?) and in fact the scale lines actually match contour to the chord changes which is exactly how they tell you NOT to do it at jazz school, but importantly Allan uses this type of thing very well, with the climbing upper note - so it's not like he's just plug each scale as a moveable shape in parallel - he has a similar sort of climax on his 16 Men of Tain solo.

ALSO guitarists have really NO idea about enharmony. Sigh.

Perpetual scale practice is an important one for this - make sure you only change direction when you get to the top of your scale position (whatever that is), not with each chord change.

[Reg]

Yea.... it's a cool tune. And yes Joe Henderson loved chords and scales relationships and all the other stuff.

It's an old tune.... back in late 60's and early 70's I would use Pents with scale relationships... kind of rocky blues thing.

Pents with dorian or phrygian relationships. The whole tune. You could melodically hear tune in 3 sections.... A B C 8 bars each.... and each section would build until that last Gmaj7.

It's a modal tune approach... You do need to be able to burn or shred... it's not really a ballad.

Example...

Emaj7.... push the C# Dorian Min pent with blue note of G and use that C# note to become Db with Dbmaj pent
on Dbmaj7 etc...

So basically your using standard Relative Functional harmonic relationships.... (C#min is relative relationship with Emaj) and then using modal interchange..... Dorian and locrian Min Pents .... and throw in Blue Notes... and presto your hip and you can use your ears to keep some musical organization using Form, ( rhythmic patterns that repeat or that implies repeating pattern)... and typical melodic developments within the Forms.... call and answer or again some type of rhythmic pattern... Form that musically organizes the physical space of the tune.

You establish... a Reverence..... create Relationships with that Reference... and then Develop those Relationships.

[ragman1]

I'm waiting to hear someone demonstrating that their ideas really work. Up to tempo, naturally :-)

It's okay, I can wait...

[Christian Miller]

there is a - sigh - hack where you go down in pentatonics a half step each time

C#m - E
Cm - Db (Dmaj7#11)
Bm - D
A#m - B (Bmaj7#11)

and so on

it works great. But it’s obviously not generally applicable to hard tunes. You just have to practice the flipping changes ultimately.

[ccroft]

Hey! Just wanted to thank everyone for this thread. Especially you Christian. A lot of stuff I plan on looking at more closely. The hack is fun. I think there's more to be done with that sort of thing.

And thanks for posting the guitar versions. Silly me... I never thought to seek them out. Been working with Joe's all this time. One helpful thing I think I hear is the 'cheating' on the quintuplet in bar 21. I've spent a lot of time trying to nail that. Good for the chops, but apparently not entirely needed for the tune. Time I mighta spent learning to blow on the last 8. I think expedient is the word?

Kurt!! Goddam...

(i slowed him way down to check on that quintuple. he's clean and he swings the head nice)

[sgcim]

That tune freaked me out when I first heard it. Back when I was into Larry Coryell, I wrote a spacey ballad that was very similar to IU, but I had never heard IU before. It had the same first few chord changes that IU had, but the melody was very simple.
I was still in HS when I wrote it, but the chords just came to me out of nowhere, like it was meant to be.

I didn't know what to do with it, until I found myself in a studio with a drummer friend of mine who wanted to make a tape of original tunes for some reason. I think he wanted to make a tape that showed what a great drummer he was. I played the song for him, and he thought it would sound good as an up tempo Latin tune. probably because it would show off his chops. The studio belonged to a tuba player I knew from college, so we had a lot of time to work on things. Free studio time.
They had an electric bass and a 12 string electric in the studio, so I laid down tracks on those instruments, and then played the melody and blew on it on my Gibson Barney Kessel Custom.

It was strange; at first I was kind of annoyed that he was taking my spacey ballad and making a fusion/Latin tune out of it, just to show off his chops on an audition tape, but the results sounded great.

I asked the drummer what he thought of it when we sat there in the studio listening to the final version, and he said it sounds like something you'd hear when you were having a nightmare and woke up screaming in the middle of the night.

That made me very happy. I never knew I could write music that could drive someone insane.

Then I came across Inner Urge in the Real Book, and I thought, who is this Joe Henderson guy, and how did he steal my chord progression? It wasn't the other way around, because i never heard IU before that.

I stumbled my way through IU, and didn't like it at all. It seemed to me JH got it all wrong.
By writing such a complex melody to such a weird chord progression defeated the whole point of the chord progression. I liked songs like 500 Miles High, and Time Remembered much more, because they had simple melodies and complex chord changes; much more musically coherent.

Then the fact that IU has a walking bass line to it, just makes it worse, and even less coherent. I took JH's original version
out from the library and listened to it and hated it. No wonder everyone hates jazz.
I love tunes like "Recordame", but IU gets it ass backwards.

Then I had a jazz quartet gig led by a tenor sax player that had a lot of chops, but didn't know what to do with them. The gig went great until the very last tune of the night. He got this weird look in his eyes, and I knew something was wrong. Sure enough, he yells out "Let's do Inner Urge!"
I told him I didn't know it, and he shoved a Real Book in front of me, and I told him I never played it before, so I'm not going to take a solo on it. He just ignored me and counted it off. Some other guys sat in on it, and it sounded like schist. Then he motioned for me to take a solo, and I felt like telling him to eff off, but I just shook my head no, emphatically.