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Yea ... you usually don't go down in 1/2 steps. Your usually playing the relative Min pentatonic. And just like using arps or scales.... it's just a reference. Think of how one might embellish a note.
So instead of embellishing a "note" ... your embellishing a 'Note Pattern". And what you embellish with... is the Relative scale(s). And you can also use blue notes from different styles... Think of what most think of as Blue Notes...
b3, b7 and #4 or b5.... which can be like using borrowing, ( modal Interchange), so instead of just using single notes as Blue Notes.... you use note collections, (scales) in a Blue Note Style.
And when you use relative min.... you have options of using MI and use MM. (really easy with Dorian, as with this tune)
So for last 8 bars.... possible options
Emaj7.....You can C#min pent
Dbmaj7.....Bbmin pent
Dmaj7.....B mim pent
Bmaj7.....Ab min pent
Cmaj7....A min pent
Amaj7....F# min pent
Bb7 ...... F mm pent
Gmaj7 ...E min pent
You would then organize how to target Blue Notes to help create Modal harmonic movement within standard Functional Harmony.
Rag.... your obviously note going to post something in time. It is kind of difficult... I have a gig and will try and post something in time.... later, it's not difficult to me. It's more of kind of boring.... good way to kill an audience, which is why I would try and pull from the Blues sound.
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08-13-2023 05:24 PM
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No, I'm certainly not going to do my own version, especially at tempo! I admit to being slightly mischievous because, you know, it's one thing to analyse it and another to perform it. Anyway, as you said, it's not a ballad :-)
Originally Posted by Reg
But, for what it's worth, I'd already worked out all the pent/scale stuff days ago. Can't perform it but I can do that quite well.
One interesting thing over the last 8 bars. If you examine the tonalities of those chords by the melody, they all correspond to the chord except over the DbM7#11.
E is E, D is D, B is B, etc... but the Db is not Db, it's Bb. There's no correspondence to Db or Ab. The tonality for that bar is Bb. Quite interesting.
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It's not an easy tune... stylistically difficult.
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Tbf it’s not that savage. You do get a bar each chord unlike something like 26-2 or that absolute pig of a Kurt Rosenwinkel tune I looked at in a recent vid. The chords follow a more obvious pattern as well which makes it easy to remember.
I’ve been playing IU for a long time though and played it on plenty of gigs, and it doesn’t give me pause for thought at this stage (there are other tunes that do - and not always the hardest looking on paper. For example I find Nardis weirdly challenging.)
You just have to practice the chord tones until they are second nature, and then do the same for subs, scales, language etc. it eventually clicks, this stuff isn’t linear. You have to do that with ii V I’s it’s just that those trad patterns tend to come up more frequently so we get practice.
In the same way when we learn Trane cycles we should probably learn a bunch of tunes that use them (admittedly lots of of them written or arranged by Trane haha.)
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Yea... It's not difficult, but it's not easy. I've been kind of hinting at how one could approach.
So make an analysis.. which is how chords function with melody and tonal or modal reference.
Trick.... if you use the relative relationships for last 8 bars... it becomes easier.
Original.................. Functional sub
Ema7 (lyd).............C#-7 (dorian)
Dbmaj7 .................C#maj.7 (lyd) (Dbma7)
Dmaj7 (lyd)............B-7 (dor)
Bmaj7 ...................Bmaj7
Cmaj7.... etc
Amaj7
Bb7 Lyd Dom
Gmaj7.... just what it says
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Like I said, let's hear it. Talk is cheap. At least Kris isn't so sure. That's intelligent.
No one has taken up my Bb over Db yet (the one in the last 8, not the first). That's Bb major, by the way, not Bbm pent.
Lyd of E is B maj.
Skip one, then lyd of D is A maj.
He's just moving down chromatically and using Bb maj for the DbM7#11... but it doesn't matter.
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This one's pretty good.
Last edited by ragman1; 08-14-2023 at 09:00 PM.
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There is a Polish version .Unfortunately, the guitarist and bassist are no longer alive.My good friends....;
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not all of this stuff is regarding the B section BTW - the ‘practice the voicings in position’ is an important drill. Pretty much thing no 1 Originally Posted by ragman1
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well, I’ve got a hospital appointment? Originally Posted by ragman1
Seriously;
a) Im more interested in what Adam, Kurt, Allan etc play on rhythm changes than forum members. Is that weird?
b) the day I feel I have to prove myself to ragman1 is the day i have lost all self respect (tbf this is not a far off day, believe me.)
c) being able to shred on Inner Urge is not really that big of a deal is it? It’s kind of a jazz student vibe no?
d) I’ll probably do a vid on it at some point anyways and you can hear for yourself that I’m not as good at it as Kurt haha
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You're entirely missing the point. I'm not trying to get people to prove something. How silly, what a waste of time! I just get tired of reading all this stuff and never hearing anything except YouTube versions by pro players. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
If it was me I'd write it but I also make short demo clips, as you know. They might not be much good but at least you know the written stuff's not just blah (usually).
I don't think Henderson, van Ruller, etc, etc, were thinking about student stuff, not for a moment.being able to shred on Inner Urge is not really that big of a deal is it? It’s kind of a jazz student vibe no?
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A curious person might be inclined to—say—try it out and hear it come out of their own guitar. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Absolutely, but on the other hand why are we here? We talk, discuss, communicate. It's good to do that, we're a gregarious species. But anyone can noodle away in their room all by themselves. This is a music forum, we all play guitar. Then why not share that? Anyone can be a genius in their own isolation. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Can you play this tune? So share it with us. Or, like me, be honest and say it's too difficult.
Actually I have done several versions already because I worked it all out. But it's slow and a bit ballad-like. Want to hear it? I don't mind.
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At the moment, no. Haven’t put the time in. Originally Posted by ragman1
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So i suppose you feel that the people on JGO are more like a community of players you are in touch with and more accessible than well known players, and therefore hearing ‘mere mortals’ do stuff is helpful/interesting in a different way? That makes sense. Originally Posted by ragman1
OTOH I hang out here usually when I’m not able to practice for various reasons (usually childcare days or chilling out after the day) and I like chatting about it. So recording short vids/audios as commentary on JGO isn’t top of my list of stuff to do when I do pick up the guitar when my time tends to be very much spoken for.
(Although quite often I’m inspired to work on something or make a video etc because of a convo I’ve had here.)
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I'm sure there are reasons for that but I won't enquire. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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It doesn't matter. Sorry, as you were. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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By the way, I'm not fond of perpetual pentatonics, they're not tuneful enough for me. I don't know if anyone else feels that way.
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Thanks for respecting my privacy in this sensitive matter. Originally Posted by ragman1
Honestly I don’t love the tune and it’s also a difficult tune. Hard enough that to put in the requisite time, I’d have to really want to get into it.
But, then again, it’s a hard tune so I find the ideas people have for playing to be interesting and enlightening.
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As far as other versions go, I think I like this. He's made it quite melodic.
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Larry quotes the melody quite a bit and uses some strong sequence ideas. I don’t think sequencing on this prog is a bad thing at all.
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I found two videos of myself hacking through this one, thought they might be interesting to some...
Kurt Rosenwinkel I am not
Now to go back and analyze what I was doing...or not doing. With everything being so Lydian you could definitely get by with the "minor pent half step lower" trick...
I think in the second video I'm intentionally trying NOT to chase every change and create some kind of tension/resolution thing...but the tune doesn't really have obvious resolution...
Time to revisit this one, at any rate.
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Is it blasphemy to say that I don't care much for this tune and I don't care much even for the versions, posted above, done by the greats?
Sorry. I know my taste doesn't matter to anyone else. But, at some point I think a player has to decide what kind of jazz they want to play.
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