Your Take on Jordan Klemons?

[princeplanet]

Like many here, I've become aware of Jordan's method he calls Melodic Triads. I get why it's a better alternative than have students try to make good melodic lines from just scales alone, and I know that some around here have adopted the ideas despite being very experienced players.

But as much as he insists it's a simple method. I think the usage and variations get pretty complicated in the long run, especially for those of us that have already sunk costs in our own approach up the Jazz mountain. As a system for those starting out, I believe it's a sound method that will get players sounding musical from the get go. But would you be happy to devote 10 years to this approach?

[rlrhett]

I think all these “methods” are simply a starting point. Cracks in the impenetrable wall that is jazz. If you are new to improvising lines over complex changes, Jordan has a way that helps get in there.

That said, I don’t think anyone is going to spend 10 years on his method alone. Heck, not even Jordan himself has spent 10 years on it.

Personally, I was intrigued by his ideas. Unfortunately, I don’t like his playing. He’s a wonderful player, not knocking his ability at all. It’s just I wouldn’t want to play lines like his. I couldn’t get into his method because I didn’t hear anyone apply it in a way I wanted to emulate.

That said, if you are relatively new to the game he has a method that could be a great jumping off point to playing over changes and getting some good fretboard knowledge.


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[Jimmy blue note]

Jordan was once a fountain of information and a regular part of this group. I missed him when he stopped being active. He's got a very personal take on the process of improvisation that he got from being personally active and playing with some of the heaviest cats in NY.
I love his take on triads, which is a lot more than triads as you may have known or learned them. He's the real deal and I, for one, have enjoyed learning from his insightful way of hearing harmony and melody.
His FB group is a terrific way to actually learn hands on and organically, his talks and focus topics are fun and expansive.

[Bop Head]

Like many here, I've become aware of Jordan's method he calls Melodic Triads. I get why it's a better alternative than have students try to make good melodic lines from just scales alone, and I know that some around here have adopted the ideas despite being very experienced players.

But as much as he insists it's a simple method. I think the usage and variations get pretty complicated in the long run, especially for those of us that have already sunk costs in our own approach up the Jazz mountain. As a system for those starting out, I believe it's a sound method that will get players sounding musical from the get go. But would you be happy to devote 10 years to this approach?

If I have understood correctly, he developped his method to relearn improvisation after a brain surgery. So the purpose of the whole thing is to not spend 10 years to get results. (Of course learning never stops.)

[pamosmusic]

If I have understood correctly, he developped his method to relearn improvisation after a brain surgery. So the purpose of the whole thing is to not spend 10 years to get results. (Of course learning never stops.)

Yeah it started a bit earlier while he was working with Stefon Harris at NYU.

He had been working on putting the ideas together and systematizing it a bit for a few years before his illness. Then he had to relearn playing and used those ideas to do it. So the ideas are a bit older, but the experience was kind of a real world experiment on their efficacy.

(full disclosure, Jordan is a friend, so I’ll kind of step back from the review other than to say he’s a great guy and a really great communicator for this material).

[ragman1]

As has been said, Jordan used to be here and I had discussions with him. He wasn't a well bunny for a long time. Then he went off to teach.

I looked at his teaching. Can't say I warmed to it. He has to make a living, or at least some money. I found the lessons were strung out and elongated unnecessarily so they'd take longer. All to get over some pretty basic stuff. Probably below the level of most players here.

I certainly didn't take to his triads thing. It's not a very good substitute for knowing your scales. modes, chords, etc. It looks like it - just learn 3 notes plus one more and use it to solo with. I mean, really.

It's a trick. I told him that it was too limiting. It didn't give you enough scope to play with. I found it constricting, not very musical, and denied a sense of freedom.

One could say it's a beginning. It gives the player a sense of what might be possible. But that player sooner or later would start wanting to fill in the gaps with more extensive knowledge and techniques.

I think it's an attempt to be original (which it's not) and probably lures people in with a phony promise. So I'm not a fan. And I was also unimpressed with his own demonstrations of his own method.

I think already advanced players could possibly use it to add to their bag of tricks and, because of their experience, use it profitably. But for the beginner, or near-beginner, no. Learn the good stuff first and learn it properly.

Beware seemingly clever methods that cost a lot and take a long time, perhaps deliberately so, to understand and apply. And leave you wondering if you're really playing decent jazz.

Really?

[ragman1]

Hey, Jordan, try playing this with triads!

[Liarspoker]

If you're on Jordan's email list you can get free access to his course minus some other parts such as the bonus section and feedback from Jordan himself.

I love triads (have you seen the Goodrick and Miller GMC book? ) especially those based on quartal harmony so I took the opportunity to register for Jordan's free course.

Unfortunately I haven't had time to look at it yet and won't have time for the next fortnight or so.

I've had correspondence with Jordan previously and that was all good. I don't know him personally but from my interactions with him he seems like a nice guy.

[Christian Miller]

Hey, Jordan, try playing this with triads!

You know the melody to joy spring is a really good example of Jordan’s quadrad concept right? The opening phrase is what he call F add tension 2 for instance (F triad + G) which is a common melodic device throughout bebop.

[Christian Miller]

I was resistant to Jordan’s ideas at first because I was so heavily invested in other things. It really took the demonstration he did of the dissonance of lower chord tones in extended harmonies to blow my mind - for instance the dissonance of E on a Cmaj9 chord. I started exploring it after then.

This has really re-geared the way I hear and think about what I call ‘colour harmony’ (ie upper extensions). To actually apply his melodic ideas is relatively quick - it gets more complex with the voicings and so on. There’s a lot there and I’ve been looking at this on and off for about five years. I think I have a decent grasp.

It’s a really cool way of looking at things. It is primarily vertical, I think Jordan introduces more horizontal aspects later on?

Is it for beginner improvisers? I think beginners have a lot of things they need to learn. Triads is one of them, but it’s unlikely any of this will sound like jazz early on until the rhythmic and melodic sense is developed. As far as I can see the focus of effective jazz education remains on the music rather than the ideas - you have to learn the essence of the music and transcription/lifting is the most common approach. I’m pretty certain Jordan would agree, with the proviso that we also learn from the tunes themselves - that last thing is something I learned both from Jordan and Peter Bernstein in fact.

[pamosmusic]

Hey, Jordan, try playing this with triads!

Whew. If you’re going down this road, you should spend some quality time with Stefon Harris. That dude shreds. And the ideas are adapted from a lot of his.

I worked at a jazz club in Manhattan for two years — ten sets a week, or thereabouts — and Stefon was maybe the best hour of music I’ve ever seen live. It was unreal.

[Paulie2]

With dialogue like some comments in this thread I can't see why he or others would ever want to leave the forum....

[Bop Head]

If you're on Jordan's email list you can get free access to his course minus some other parts such as the bonus section and feedback from Jordan himself.

I love triads (have you seen the Goodrick and Miller GMC book? ) especially those based on quartal harmony so I took the opportunity to register for Jordan's free course.

Unfortunately I haven't had time to look at it yet and won't have time for the next fortnight or so.

I've had correspondence with Jordan previously and that was all good. I don't know him personally but from my interactions with him he seems like a nice guy.

I have been looking into the free accessible course since yesterday and I hope it will stay free for a long enough while so I can pull out something out of it. I think he has some great concepts he teaches. And I am happy I passed the introductory listening test 100 % correct so more than 30 years of ear training pay off .

[bako]

I like thinking in note collections. The 12 note chromatic collection is dense and all encompassing. The common 7 note collections are more manageable and provide a good starting reference window into key centric harmony. The Barry Harris 7th chord + companion diminished are an interesting variant.

Some other possibilities:

7th chord pairs with no common tones
Tetra chord pairs framed by a octave
Triad pairs with no common tones (hexatonic)
7th chord + 1 (an expanded view of pentatonic)
triad + 1 (what Jordan defines a quadratonic)
common triads or a broader view interval + 1 (tri-chords)
intervals (viewed functionally)
single note (viewed functionally)

I look at engagement with each note collection as a form of ear training.

Jordan's approach intensely focuses on one specific smaller 4 note collection grounded in triads with an interesting view on tension tones. It is a subset micro-view approach towards fuller understanding of the superset chromatic collection. I am not a believer in one stop shop universal solutions to musical growth. But........What's not to like? There are some good things that can be learned from this perspective.

[ragman1]

I was resistant to Jordan’s ideas at first because I was so heavily invested in other things. It really took the demonstration he did of the dissonance of lower chord tones in extended harmonies to blow my mind - for instance the dissonance of E on a Cmaj9 chord. I started exploring it after then.

This has really re-geared the way I hear and think about what I call ‘colour harmony’ (ie upper extensions). To actually apply his melodic ideas is relatively quick - it gets more complex with the voicings and so on. There’s a lot there and I’ve been looking at this on and off for about five years. I think I have a decent grasp.

It’s a really cool way of looking at things. It is primarily vertical, I think Jordan introduces more horizontal aspects later on?

Is it for beginner improvisers? I think beginners have a lot of things they need to learn. Triads is one of them, but it’s unlikely any of this will sound like jazz early on until the rhythmic and melodic sense is developed. As far as I can see the focus of effective jazz education remains on the music rather than the ideas - you have to learn the essence of the music and transcription/lifting is the most common approach. I’m pretty certain Jordan would agree, with the proviso that we also learn from the tunes themselves - that last thing is something I learned both from Jordan and Peter Bernstein in fact.

That's precisely my point before about it possibly being of some use to advanced players, Christian. Look at the level of your comments. And I'm sorry but there's no doubt at all that simple concepts were being strung out to a much longer process than was necessary. But he may have improved his approach by now, I don't know.

[kris]

It is simple!
Jazz guitar - you have to practice.
This is my opinion on this topic.

[ragman1]

Whew. If you’re going down this road, you should spend some quality time with Stefon Harris. That dude shreds. And the ideas are adapted from a lot of his.

I worked at a jazz club in Manhattan for two years — ten sets a week, or thereabouts — and Stefon was maybe the best hour of music I’ve ever seen live. It was unreal.

Oh, come on, Stefon Harris plays vibes. Big instrument. Good musician, though, no question. And he doesn't just play triads.

I've yet to hear even one convincing track where the player's using this triads+1 technique, and I don't mean occasionally popped into some other stuff played in the usual way. And that includes Jordan himself.

Can you find one?

[Bop Head]

It is simple!
Jazz guitar - you have to practice.
This is my opinion on this topic.

J. Klemons has created a concept of what to practice to be efficient (again: he had to relearn playing after a brain surgery). His teachings are if I understood correctly the essence of what he learned from his mentors -- not the worst names on earth: Stefon Harris, Mark Turner, Peter Bernstein, John Scofield (IIRC there was a guy from Poland who said he liked Scofield), Kurt Rosenwinkel, etc.

[princeplanet]

Oh, come on, Stefon Harris plays vibes. Big instrument. Good musician, though, no question. And he doesn't just play triads.

I've yet to hear even one convincing track where the player's using this triads+1 technique, and I don't mean occasionally popped into some other stuff played in the usual way. And that includes Jordan himself.

Can you find one?

Yeah. but as you've acknowledged, there might be areas in one's playing that may benefit from this approach. For example, I've worked a lot on Dom lines to the point that when the line resolves to Tonic I run out of ideas after a while. Chromatic embellishment of chord tones is endlessly fun on Dom, but that approach when applied to Tonic areas can sound overwrought (well, when I do it anyway). I need to chill out more on Tonic and I think that triads +1 are a good way to create really strong melodic lines where the chosen +1 really imparts a mood to a line. And with 9 such moods to choose from, it gives you a bit to work with to make all your resolving lines strong, but varied each time depending on what mood you're feeling in the moment. If you're relying on cells, devices, embellishing arps, licks etc, then sprinkling in a little triad +1 can provide some welcome respite while using less notes.

Dunno, that's just one use I can think of that might be useful for me, and I'm sure there are hundreds of other ways where others may benefit?

[Blackguard53]

With dialogue like some comments in this thread I can't see why he or others would ever want to leave the forum....

I really like this forum, but there are a good handful of know it alls and theory experts that inevitably trade "blows" in just about every thread. I look on it as a microcosm of the jazz world in general, and why this forum (and the jazz world) is as relevant as it is(nt).

That being said, I'm always learning from the theory and method argument, and have found plenty of new cats to check out that aren't dead or over 70.

Love that Jimmy Bruno video.

[pamosmusic]

Oh, come on, Stefon Harris plays vibes. Big instrument. Good musician, though, no question. And he doesn't just play triads.

I've yet to hear even one convincing track where the player's using this triads+1 technique, and I don't mean occasionally popped into some other stuff played in the usual way. And that includes Jordan himself.

Can you find one?

Well Stefon is where the ideas started. So that’s why I chose him.

And as far as using “exclusively” one idea, I think it should go without saying that it’s a pretty subjective standard.

I could tell you that I play absolutely nothing but major scales and never play triads. C E and G isn’t a triad, it’s a series of intervals and I’m “exclusively” playing scales. And you would tell me that was silly, and it is silly, but it’s also a valid way to analyze something. It could also be a Major 7 chord without one of the notes. Or whatever. Lots of ways to see the theory behind any given idea and it can be really really useful to analyze things in particular ways because you’ll see different facets of the same idea depending on how you look at it.

Ive been watching some of his videos today and Jordan describes the melodic triads as a great way to study melodies. Which seems pretty uncontroversial to me.

You’re also asking to be impressed by videos posted by students with the express purpose of demonstrating their comprehension of particular modules in an educational curriculum. His students will post videos of themselves working on things—they might be super excited by what they hear in their playing, because they hear something coming together that they’ve been working on, and you might not be impressed, and I wouldn’t expect you to be. I can post videos of myself playing stuff I’m working on and wouldn’t sound terribly impressive either, but then that’s not really the purpose.

I also wouldn’t expect his approach to work for everyone. That’s also an unreasonable standard for any approach.

Anyway — that’s all to say it’s okay for an approach not to work for you, but judge on that basis, rather than on whether or not you deem it to be working for others. If that makes sense.

[pamosmusic]

After you get past a certain literacy with theory, it’s really about thinking through a sound and naming it so that you can reproduce it later. Two people might give the same sound a different name because they hear something different that they want to reproduce.

Is that a 6-5 suspension with a delayed resolution or a Major 6 chord?

It doesn’t really matter except insofar as it helps you understand what’s happening.

So the question is — does it help?

if the answer is “no” then that’s fine, but it’s not really valid to take a peek inside someone else’s head to determine whether or not it’s helping them.

[ragman1]

Well Stefon is where the ideas started. So that’s why I chose him.

That's why I said it wasn't a new idea. It's not.

And as far as using “exclusively” one idea, I think it should go without saying that it’s a pretty subjective standard.

I didn't say it was exclusive but the implication is that. If you read it.

could tell you that I play absolutely nothing but major scales and never play triads. C E and G isn’t a triad, it’s a series of intervals and I’m “exclusively” playing scales. And you would tell me that was silly, and it is silly, but it’s also a valid way to analyze something. It could also be a Major 7 chord without one of the notes. Or whatever. Lots of ways to see the theory behind any given idea and it can be really really useful to analyze things in particular ways because you’ll see different facets of the same idea depending on how you look at it.

That's all about you, not this.

Ive been watching some of his videos today and Jordan describes the melodic triads as a great way to study melodies. Which seems pretty uncontroversial to me.

Well, he would, wouldn't he?

You’re also asking to be impressed by videos posted by students

Really? Where? I asked if anyone had a convincing example of this method in use. Nothing about students.

I also wouldn’t expect his approach to work for everyone. That’s also an unreasonable standard for any approach.

Agreed, but if a method is any good it'll receive the acclaim it deserves. And it can be demonstrated. But, certainly in my experience, these 'methods' that are invented by people have a very limited use. They get people excited because they're new and shiny and then fade away. Nothing has really superseded the known ways of playing music. Not as far as I know, anyway.

Anyway — that’s all to say it’s okay for an approach not to work for you, but judge on that basis, rather than on whether or not you deem it to be working for others. If that makes sense.

Absolutely, but I hope very seriously that I'm not so unaware or small-minded as to think that something I don't particularly relate to personally is universally useless!

Anyway, I already use triads and upper extensions, etc, etc. A lot.

[pamosmusic]

All I mean is that you can’t find a convincing example of anyone using any concept in the wild because you can’t really be inside someone’s head in that way. Stefon is a good example of someone who claims to think that way and sounds endlessly inventive and flexible. He certainly sounds like he’s doing all kinds of stuff, but I’m not in his head so I don’t know by what means he gets to where he gets.

If you want an example of someone demonstrating a technique, it’s going to sound like that: a demonstration of a technique. Which is to say that it’s not really going to sound all that interesting. A teacher showing how it can be used; a student showing how they’re coming along with it.

[Christian Miller]

Is that a 6-5 suspension with a delayed resolution or a Major 6 chord?

ok we are in fact the same person haha