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Like many here, I've become aware of Jordan's method he calls Melodic Triads. I get why it's a better alternative than have students try to make good melodic lines from just scales alone, and I know that some around here have adopted the ideas despite being very experienced players.
But as much as he insists it's a simple method. I think the usage and variations get pretty complicated in the long run, especially for those of us that have already sunk costs in our own approach up the Jazz mountain. As a system for those starting out, I believe it's a sound method that will get players sounding musical from the get go. But would you be happy to devote 10 years to this approach?Last edited by princeplanet; 06-27-2023 at 01:39 PM.
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06-27-2023 01:06 PM
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I think all these “methods” are simply a starting point. Cracks in the impenetrable wall that is jazz. If you are new to improvising lines over complex changes, Jordan has a way that helps get in there.
That said, I don’t think anyone is going to spend 10 years on his method alone. Heck, not even Jordan himself has spent 10 years on it.
Personally, I was intrigued by his ideas. Unfortunately, I don’t like his playing. He’s a wonderful player, not knocking his ability at all. It’s just I wouldn’t want to play lines like his. I couldn’t get into his method because I didn’t hear anyone apply it in a way I wanted to emulate.
That said, if you are relatively new to the game he has a method that could be a great jumping off point to playing over changes and getting some good fretboard knowledge.
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Jordan was once a fountain of information and a regular part of this group. I missed him when he stopped being active. He's got a very personal take on the process of improvisation that he got from being personally active and playing with some of the heaviest cats in NY.
I love his take on triads, which is a lot more than triads as you may have known or learned them. He's the real deal and I, for one, have enjoyed learning from his insightful way of hearing harmony and melody.
His FB group is a terrific way to actually learn hands on and organically, his talks and focus topics are fun and expansive.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
He had been working on putting the ideas together and systematizing it a bit for a few years before his illness. Then he had to relearn playing and used those ideas to do it. So the ideas are a bit older, but the experience was kind of a real world experiment on their efficacy.
(full disclosure, Jordan is a friend, so I’ll kind of step back from the review other than to say he’s a great guy and a really great communicator for this material).
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As has been said, Jordan used to be here and I had discussions with him. He wasn't a well bunny for a long time. Then he went off to teach.
I looked at his teaching. Can't say I warmed to it. He has to make a living, or at least some money. I found the lessons were strung out and elongated unnecessarily so they'd take longer. All to get over some pretty basic stuff. Probably below the level of most players here.
I certainly didn't take to his triads thing. It's not a very good substitute for knowing your scales. modes, chords, etc. It looks like it - just learn 3 notes plus one more and use it to solo with. I mean, really.
It's a trick. I told him that it was too limiting. It didn't give you enough scope to play with. I found it constricting, not very musical, and denied a sense of freedom.
One could say it's a beginning. It gives the player a sense of what might be possible. But that player sooner or later would start wanting to fill in the gaps with more extensive knowledge and techniques.
I think it's an attempt to be original (which it's not) and probably lures people in with a phony promise. So I'm not a fan. And I was also unimpressed with his own demonstrations of his own method.
I think already advanced players could possibly use it to add to their bag of tricks and, because of their experience, use it profitably. But for the beginner, or near-beginner, no. Learn the good stuff first and learn it properly.
Beware seemingly clever methods that cost a lot and take a long time, perhaps deliberately so, to understand and apply. And leave you wondering if you're really playing decent jazz.
Really?
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Hey, Jordan, try playing this with triads!
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If you're on Jordan's email list you can get free access to his course minus some other parts such as the bonus section and feedback from Jordan himself.
I love triads (have you seen the Goodrick and Miller GMC book? ) especially those based on quartal harmony so I took the opportunity to register for Jordan's free course.
Unfortunately I haven't had time to look at it yet and won't have time for the next fortnight or so.
I've had correspondence with Jordan previously and that was all good. I don't know him personally but from my interactions with him he seems like a nice guy.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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I was resistant to Jordan’s ideas at first because I was so heavily invested in other things. It really took the demonstration he did of the dissonance of lower chord tones in extended harmonies to blow my mind - for instance the dissonance of E on a Cmaj9 chord. I started exploring it after then.
This has really re-geared the way I hear and think about what I call ‘colour harmony’ (ie upper extensions). To actually apply his melodic ideas is relatively quick - it gets more complex with the voicings and so on. There’s a lot there and I’ve been looking at this on and off for about five years. I think I have a decent grasp.
It’s a really cool way of looking at things. It is primarily vertical, I think Jordan introduces more horizontal aspects later on?
Is it for beginner improvisers? I think beginners have a lot of things they need to learn. Triads is one of them, but it’s unlikely any of this will sound like jazz early on until the rhythmic and melodic sense is developed. As far as I can see the focus of effective jazz education remains on the music rather than the ideas - you have to learn the essence of the music and transcription/lifting is the most common approach. I’m pretty certain Jordan would agree, with the proviso that we also learn from the tunes themselves - that last thing is something I learned both from Jordan and Peter Bernstein in fact.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
I worked at a jazz club in Manhattan for two years — ten sets a week, or thereabouts — and Stefon was maybe the best hour of music I’ve ever seen live. It was unreal.
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With dialogue like some comments in this thread I can't see why he or others would ever want to leave the forum....
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Originally Posted by Liarspoker
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I like thinking in note collections. The 12 note chromatic collection is dense and all encompassing. The common 7 note collections are more manageable and provide a good starting reference window into key centric harmony. The Barry Harris 7th chord + companion diminished are an interesting variant.
Some other possibilities:
7th chord pairs with no common tones
Tetra chord pairs framed by a octave
Triad pairs with no common tones (hexatonic)
7th chord + 1 (an expanded view of pentatonic)
triad + 1 (what Jordan defines a quadratonic)
common triads or a broader view interval + 1 (tri-chords)
intervals (viewed functionally)
single note (viewed functionally)
I look at engagement with each note collection as a form of ear training.
Jordan's approach intensely focuses on one specific smaller 4 note collection grounded in triads with an interesting view on tension tones. It is a subset micro-view approach towards fuller understanding of the superset chromatic collection. I am not a believer in one stop shop universal solutions to musical growth. But........What's not to like? There are some good things that can be learned from this perspective.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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It is simple!
Jazz guitar - you have to practice.
This is my opinion on this topic.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I've yet to hear even one convincing track where the player's using this triads+1 technique, and I don't mean occasionally popped into some other stuff played in the usual way. And that includes Jordan himself.
Can you find one?
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Originally Posted by kris
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Dunno, that's just one use I can think of that might be useful for me, and I'm sure there are hundreds of other ways where others may benefit?
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Originally Posted by Paulie2
That being said, I'm always learning from the theory and method argument, and have found plenty of new cats to check out that aren't dead or over 70.
Love that Jimmy Bruno video.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
And as far as using “exclusively” one idea, I think it should go without saying that it’s a pretty subjective standard.
I could tell you that I play absolutely nothing but major scales and never play triads. C E and G isn’t a triad, it’s a series of intervals and I’m “exclusively” playing scales. And you would tell me that was silly, and it is silly, but it’s also a valid way to analyze something. It could also be a Major 7 chord without one of the notes. Or whatever. Lots of ways to see the theory behind any given idea and it can be really really useful to analyze things in particular ways because you’ll see different facets of the same idea depending on how you look at it.
Ive been watching some of his videos today and Jordan describes the melodic triads as a great way to study melodies. Which seems pretty uncontroversial to me.
You’re also asking to be impressed by videos posted by students with the express purpose of demonstrating their comprehension of particular modules in an educational curriculum. His students will post videos of themselves working on things—they might be super excited by what they hear in their playing, because they hear something coming together that they’ve been working on, and you might not be impressed, and I wouldn’t expect you to be. I can post videos of myself playing stuff I’m working on and wouldn’t sound terribly impressive either, but then that’s not really the purpose.
I also wouldn’t expect his approach to work for everyone. That’s also an unreasonable standard for any approach.
Anyway — that’s all to say it’s okay for an approach not to work for you, but judge on that basis, rather than on whether or not you deem it to be working for others. If that makes sense.
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After you get past a certain literacy with theory, it’s really about thinking through a sound and naming it so that you can reproduce it later. Two people might give the same sound a different name because they hear something different that they want to reproduce.
Is that a 6-5 suspension with a delayed resolution or a Major 6 chord?
It doesn’t really matter except insofar as it helps you understand what’s happening.
So the question is — does it help?
if the answer is “no” then that’s fine, but it’s not really valid to take a peek inside someone else’s head to determine whether or not it’s helping them.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
And as far as using “exclusively” one idea, I think it should go without saying that it’s a pretty subjective standard.
could tell you that I play absolutely nothing but major scales and never play triads. C E and G isn’t a triad, it’s a series of intervals and I’m “exclusively” playing scales. And you would tell me that was silly, and it is silly, but it’s also a valid way to analyze something. It could also be a Major 7 chord without one of the notes. Or whatever. Lots of ways to see the theory behind any given idea and it can be really really useful to analyze things in particular ways because you’ll see different facets of the same idea depending on how you look at it.
Ive been watching some of his videos today and Jordan describes the melodic triads as a great way to study melodies. Which seems pretty uncontroversial to me.
You’re also asking to be impressed by videos posted by students
I also wouldn’t expect his approach to work for everyone. That’s also an unreasonable standard for any approach.
Anyway — that’s all to say it’s okay for an approach not to work for you, but judge on that basis, rather than on whether or not you deem it to be working for others. If that makes sense.
Anyway, I already use triads and upper extensions, etc, etc. A lot.
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All I mean is that you can’t find a convincing example of anyone using any concept in the wild because you can’t really be inside someone’s head in that way. Stefon is a good example of someone who claims to think that way and sounds endlessly inventive and flexible. He certainly sounds like he’s doing all kinds of stuff, but I’m not in his head so I don’t know by what means he gets to where he gets.
If you want an example of someone demonstrating a technique, it’s going to sound like that: a demonstration of a technique. Which is to say that it’s not really going to sound all that interesting. A teacher showing how it can be used; a student showing how they’re coming along with it.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Jerry Lee Lewis: Trouble in Mind
Today, 09:21 AM in Other Styles / Instruments