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I've always been intrigued by Dominant class chords where, despite their containing a tritone, have no inclination to a specific resolution in the usual way (non resolving Dom).
But I can't believe I never noticed that even the commonly used m69 chord conceals a tritone, probably because it never appeared to have much tensional flux.
How many other non Dominant class chords do we know of that contain these "stealth" tritones?
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06-25-2023 10:56 AM
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Not just m69 but plain old m6, too.
Maj7#11
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Indeed, Dom9=m7b5=m6 - the holy Jazz Trinity ... But when a m6 is contextualized as, say, im6 in a minor Blues, it doesn't function like it's brothers and sounds, well, stable?
Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
But yeah, the Maj7#11 is an even better example of a "stealth" tritone, and again, curiously stable... I expect I'll always find these to be fascinating sounds, or at least I hope I never get to the point where these chords sound banal to my ears.
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I believe it's a matter of exposure. Would JS Bach have thought a Maj7#11 was curiously stable? I don't think so. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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the diminished scale has lots of tri tone flavors..it even has TWO tri tone scales
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I've come across them but can't remember, which chords contain 2 tritones?
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Hehe, it's an article for beginners, fair enough, I guess I come across as being more naÍve than I thought! Originally Posted by ragman1
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The question of why some chords with Tritones resolve and others don’t is based on where they are resolving to. Originally Posted by princeplanet
I've always been intrigued by Dominant class chords where, despite their containing a tritone, have no inclination to a specific resolution in the usual way (non resolving Dom).
But I can't believe I never noticed that even the commonly used m69 chord conceals a tritone, probably because it never appeared to have much tensional flux.
How many other non Dominant class chords do we know of that contain these "stealth" tritones?
G7 as the V7 in the key of C uses the tritone to resolve via half step contrary motion. B moves up a half step to C. F moves down a half step to E. By doing this we have resolved to our Tonic chord C.
Not all chords with tritones will want to do this. Dmi6 as the tonic chord of D melodic minor has no desire to resolve anywhere. Also the B note does not have a half step to resolve to. The key of D melodic minor has a C# note which is a whole step, not a half step.
If we think of Dmi6 as a Dorian chord then it can resolve in a similar fashion to C major. In this case though, it’s acting as a substitution for the G7 chord. (G9/D)
Non resolving 7th chords also lack the pull to resolve even though they have a tritone. This is because by using contrary motion and resolving the tritone, we are forced to use chromatic notes that fall outside our key center.
For example F7 in the key of C. It’s tritone is A and Eb. Resolving would force the A note to a Bb note which is chromatic to the C scale. Therefore it doesn’t give a satisfying resolution.
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Most common would be Originally Posted by princeplanet
dim7
7b5
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Sharp eleventh is more stable than sharp four. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
Voicing can really iron out the dissonance. For instance a typical maj7#11 voicing on guitar goes 1 7 3 #4. The #11 is supported acoustically by the 7. Compare to the interval on its own.
For classical harmony none of this is really considered, the tritone is invariably dissonant. That said I still feel composers were super aware of this stuff for orchestration and so on.
Re: the OP and minor sixth chords I’m in two minds. I feel that they have that bluesy non resolving dissonance analogous to the way you might have a dominant chord for a tonic in jazz.
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Yeah that's it. Def a "resolving" chord. Cool how, say, G7b5 can resolve to C, F#, D or Ab maj. Surely the composers from the classical tradition would have exploited these sounds? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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It's a little more than that. It covers every point made so far by posters here, including the difference between b5, #4 and #11, diminished chords, and the absence of tritones in the melodic minor scale (m6 chords). How much did you read? Originally Posted by princeplanet
(I'm also not sure that in practical terms one needs more info than this. Or is yours only a theory exercise?)
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In a jazz blues, there are four tritones involved. The move back to the I is considered resolved.
G dom blues:
F B - E Bb - F B - %
E Bb - % - F B - G# D
(Am7) - F# C - F B - F# C
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in the melodic minor scale the b3 and the 6 form a tritone, as well as the 4 and the maj7. subsequently chords from the IV, V, VI and VII degree of the MM all contain a tritone. Originally Posted by ragman1
and dom chords that include more than one tritone:
C7b5, C7b9, C9b13, C13#9, C13b9b10#11 (four tritones)
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if you mean common practice, the main chord that’s like a ‘7b5’ is the French sixth, which usually moves down a half step to V, eg Ab7#11 G7 Originally Posted by princeplanet
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No, not just for theory's sake, I'm just looking to repurpose some devices I've been working on that contain these kinds of chords. I think I even posted a thread last year (that you chimed in for IIRC) where I used Dm7b5 - G7b9b13 - Cm6 in place of it's relative Major's 2 - 5 - 1 to yield Fm6 - Bb7b9sus - Eb6#11. Originally Posted by ragman1
I just find it fascinating how the same chords placed in different contexts can be perceived so differently, especially chords containing tritones, or even "hidden" tritones. I know it's all just basic Jazz substitution 101, and that everything has already been "discovered" and exploited decades ago, but I like attacking this stuff from left field and enjoy finding my own subtle twists (like using various in-sen scales against the above progressions). I always get ideas after asking the forum some question or other, like seeking out chords with multiple tritones- that will keep me busy for the next few months!
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Yes, the diminished scale contains the mother lode of tritones - but every inversion of itself sounds the same, so not of so much interest to myself regarding Originally Posted by djg
TT's in different "guises"...
Curious, why did you include the "10", when omitting it would still imply the 3rd anyway? Why is it important to notate it an 8ve up?
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Thanks, I am corrected. My fault, I quoted something without checking it. Just goes to show :-) Originally Posted by djg
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In that case god knows what I said! Originally Posted by princeplanet
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You turned me onto the CMaj69#11 chord - never played one before! Originally Posted by ragman1
In that case god knows what I said!
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speechless :-)
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it#s a b10. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Ah, I should have looked closer. Still, never seen that before, so why not #9? Originally Posted by djg
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because you cant have more than one 9 in a chord. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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