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In which djg confuses the shit out of everyone by spelling the altered scale correctly…
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06-28-2023 03:30 PM
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I've seen chords like 7b9#9.
Originally Posted by djg
No idea what it is but I've seen it. C E G Bb Db Eb I suppose?
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i've seen people eat spaghetti with fork and knife. doesnt make it right. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Alphabet rule gang represent
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Still the extendsd chord for the altered scale (more properly superlocrian in this spelling) is
1 b3 b5 b7 b9 b11 b13
and I’m not sure how much use that is to anyone
Can a chord have two thirds if not two ninths??? Ahahahaa
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Maybe, but I've still seen them. Originally Posted by djg
7b9#9
7b9#9#11
7b9#9#11b13
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Not sure I’ve ever seen them, but I play them. I really like Bbm7 over G7. From the altered scale … so it has Bb and Ab, #9 and b9 respectively. Originally Posted by ragman1
Never been a huge fan of rules though, so no idea if I’m technically supposed to.
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nobody said you cant play them, lol. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
but if it's a #9 why dont you call it A#?
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Comes from the Ab Melodic Minor. So just a matter of how you’re thinking about it. I’m usually thinking of it as a Bb minor 7, using an upper structure. So in that context, and in the context of Ab melodic minor, it’s a Bb. In the context of the chord it’s an A#. Originally Posted by djg
Don’t particularly care either way I guess.
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#9 notated as b3 is very common (wrong or right).
Best guess: the roots of this practice is likely connected to a blues scale played against dominant 7ths more than an altered scale derivation.
C Eb F Gb G Bb
Likewise, these days we most often label Gb(b5) as F#(#11)
So, where does this leave us.....
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Next up - people who write Ebm7 Ab7 Dbmaj7 Bmaj7 in charts
Actually I really don’t have a problem with that.
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Those two would be different chords though. The #11 implies that there’s a fifth in it that is something else. The b5 would imply that there isn’t. So F# with a sharp11 tells me it’s a major triad with a sharp 11. So there’s a B# and a C# in that chord. Originally Posted by bako
And in general for reading stuff I’m pro whatever makes actually reading the pitches easier. Like the melody to the B section of Green Dolphin street, where the tensions would be a b9 then a #9 on the V chord, down to the fifth of the tonic chord.
Reading two pitches on the space above the second line, one with a sharp and one with a flat, would be tricky to read. Having Bb then Ab then G would be a more seamless read for whoever has to sit with the music.
Edit: had the order of those various 9s wrong.
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It’s definitely a b3/b10 tho.
b3 is blues, #9 is what happens when you forget about the blues
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Talking about Green Dolphin? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Ab melodic minor my arse Originally Posted by pamosmusic
jazz guys! You can put minor thirds on dominant chords!!! I’m sure there’s a name for it somewhere ;-)
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Context, baby. Context. I did call it the Bb when I was saying I liked playing it as part of a Bbm7 arpeggio over the G altered. So it’s an upper structure from … the Ab Melodic minor. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Ab melodic minor my arse
jazz guys! You can put minor thirds on dominant chords!!! I’m sure there’s a name for it somewhere ;-)
How dare you presume to tell me how to over-intellectualize my own music!
I can do that fine on my own, thank you very much.
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The famous ‘#9-b9-1’ (well b9-#9-1) move on V which the Jazz Industrial Complex would have us believe has something to do with the altered scale…. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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I mean yeah you’re right on this one. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Don’t go all “Jazz Industrial Complex” on me though.
Full disclosure, Melodic Minor in general is like …….. my favorite sound. Altered stuff, 9#11, augmented major 7, minor with the six and b9. Alllllll good stuff.
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Bbm7… or why not Bbminor pent? Also known as Db major pent. Also known as, well, a tritone sub. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
By the way the Ab melodic minor pitches are spelt intervallically from the perspective of G - 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7 - so I’m not sure that helps haha. I’m sure there’s some arse somewhere insisting that you really hear the #9 instead of the b3 and so on…
hahahaHow dare you presume to tell me how to over-intellectualize my own music!
So joking aside… I have a complicated relationship with the altered scale. I also tend to get IRRATIONALLY TRIGGERED when people talk about scales parenting chords. Not sure why, I should look into it.
My feeling is that altered scale is kind of a chimera type creature - you know, body of a tritone scale, head of a whole tone scale, another head of a diminished scale, the left leg of a blue note on a dominant, that sort of thing. That’s probably why when you start digging you run into all kind of oddities.
It’s convenient, but I also feel that some very nice things on dominants get swept under the rug due to people jaunt defaulting to altered all the time
- old school diatonic minor playing on dominants
- use of the backdoor on major key dominants
- the dominant II scale - using IV melodic minor on V7
- the use of major sevenths on dominants due to tritone subs etc
- everyone knows the correct scale on 7#9 is the blues scale but we get programmed out of it
and above all
- this infantile requirement that the notes in the scale match up with the notes in the chord for neat pedagogy. There is of course no reason one can’t play a minor scale (phrygian or locrian say) on a dominant chord and even Levine mentions this… This is handled in a different way in chord scale but I think it gets everyone to wrapped up in the ‘right notes’ early on and I don’t like it.
BAH! Rant over…
So - b10!!! The altered scale too is kind of minor…
Vm7b5 Imaj7 is a nice resolution - Bb->B
Also Jordan has an Eb triad on G7#5#9 doesn’t he? The B is a tension tone.
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I think there’s a sidebar about using upper structures with no tritones to evoke colours of the altered dominant. The Eb/G7 is one - the Bbm pent on G7 is another…
The question I find is I’m not sure if of these tritone-less colours can actually be heard as altered dominant. Now of course no one in their right mind actually cares, but it’s something I like to think about…
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I like melodic minor too, but hot take - the altered scale is NOT really a melodic minor mode. It is not really like the others. What works brilliantly for a lydian dominant, lydian augmented or a locrian #2 does not work as well for an altered context and vice versa. This is due to the respelling required to make it applicable on dominants which mucks up the arrangement of the upper structure. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Edit - by which I mean you don’t really get that b5 pungency which to me really makes the altered sound different from minor key stuff.
OTOH stuff that gives you that in altered doesn’t really translate that well to other MM modes.
EDIT - so one note, the major seventh of the MM is EVERY characteristic MM note on every common application… save one
maj7 of Cm NOICE
#11 of F7 (Cm) LURVELLY
Nat9 of Am7b5 (Cm) GORGEOUS
13th of D13sus4b9 VERY NICE
Root???? of B7alt (Cm). Ah FFSLast edited by Christian Miller; 06-29-2023 at 02:37 PM.
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Hmm yeah that makes sense. I like thinking of scales parenting chords because it gives me a way to access a bunch of upper extensions and stuff, but it gets dangerous when you get too locked into it. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Like for the back door ii-V, I really like the 9#11 sound, so melodic minor gives me lots of options for making that sound happen. But also it doesn’t mean the whole ii-V is in that “tonality” and it doesn’t mean the scale itself will sound good over the V chord etc etc.
So it’s a good tool and suits the way I think well I guess.
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Might this be one reason Mike Stern teaches the altered scale as its own thing, not simply melodic minor up a half step I wonder
Ooh another thing before I finally do something else… you can find Abm(maj7) in C harmonic minor… which I find interesting. You get Abm9(maj7) if you combine it with the C natural minor which is a little stretch maybe (I think this note comes from the tritone sub really - subbing a Db13 for G7). Point is - these scales aren’t far apart and a lot of it is in one note. The differentiating sound between a Galtered scale and simply playing C minor on G7 is that b5. If it don’t got it, I don’t hear altered, I hear minor - and it’s kind of interesting how many applications of altered scale don’t have that note…Last edited by Christian Miller; 06-29-2023 at 02:59 PM.
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you’d probably enjoy the Warne marsh dominant II scale if you haven’t checked it out Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Yeah, let's just call it the JIC and make it simpler for everyone Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Speaking of simpler, simpletons like me will probably stick to #9/b9, apologies if that offends anyone!
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