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Frankly, I don't see how matching an alleged "official" definition of note and interval is going to determine anything,
Originally Posted by pauln
But, I'll keep an open mind and see where it leads.
I already agree, and have posted, that the lack of an agreed-upon definition of "theory" puts the entire thread on shifting sands.
We have even seen posts suggesting, it seems, that anybody who sounds good must know theory, whether they're aware of it or not.
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03-05-2023 10:05 PM
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^ The definition of theory is anything used to explain music. Using spoken/written language rather than music/intuitive language. If you tell someone that the big string on a guitar is tuned to E2, then that is theory because you did not communicate that information to them in music language. Extremely simple concept.
Pauln: again that is a really sick premise that you are proposing. You're not entitled to discredit everyone on the thread because they're using generally accepted definitions of basic terms lol. If you have something to add about discrepancies of terms, then go ahead and post it. Quit with your sick premise based on semantic nonsense.
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You misunderstand me. The dimension in question is not semantic, it is conceptual. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
This thread asked How do you improvise?, which is not some mechanical question,
nor a technique question; it is a conceptual question. Some, even yourself, already
point to theory for part of their answers. I can tell that not everyone saying theory
is referring to the same concepts and it is those different concepts I hope to clarify
looking at what people think note and interval mean compared to standard theory.
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Everyone isn't operating with a flawed theory understanding because of this discrepancy you're pointing out. I don't see how your argument isn't anything other than semantic. Everyone knows what notes and intervals are. Nit picking about definitions doesn't change anything.
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I could help you see how it's conceptual rather than semantic Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
if you would describe what you think of as notes and intervals.
If you're willing, it might change everything you know of music.
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Sure, I'll listen to you if you want to explain what you mean.
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Perhaps there would be a way to make the point without what seems like a game. Originally Posted by pauln
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This is only part of the truth. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
There are also numerous concerts, cooperation with various musicians and bands, radio and TV recordings, composing own tunes, etc
This is practical education!
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So we can consider everything as a theory, even the construction of the guitar. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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I can see this whole discussion going nowhere.
It may be better to replace the word theory with the word knowledge.
And this will solve the problem of jazz improvisation to some extent.
Knowledge that is gained through years of work, but in different ways.
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A long time ago a very respected musician told me:
'You can talk theory all night but play something and I'll tell you what you're worth..."
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OK, I'll give it a try... Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
There is a thing officially called music theory which is complicated and very few guitarists know much about it. There are a lot of other things that look like music theory and some that don't that are still referred to as music theory, and even some things that are clearly not music theory but have come to be called that anyway.
Only response was Notes: pitch, Interval: space between 2 pitches. I think that would be the answer that most guitarists would offer, however the standard music theory defines these things as locations of marks in the staff (lines and spaces).
In the G treble clef, a mark on the second line from the bottom is a note called G. That note may represent multiple pitches (Gbb, Gb, G, G#, G## are all on the same line of the staff for note G). You can also see that a single pitch may be represented by multiple notes (F##, G, Abb are all the same pitch). The whole basis of accidentals is to make sure that all keys maintain diatonic scales where all note letter names are included only once (a consecutive series of lines and spaces) - the whole scheme of key signature and notes (staff locations) not being directly associated which pitch is what allows the accidentals to do this.
Intervals are the distance between notes (staff locations), not pitches. This is why C to G is a fifth (perfect fifth), and C to Gb is a fifth (diminished fifth), and C to G# is a fifth (augmented fifth). They are all fifths because the distance between notes is the same - C to G. Notes are staff locations on lines and spaces which do not change with the application of accidentals (the pitch does change), so the interval distance does not change (but the pitch distance does). This is important for example when looking at chords of stacked thirds, whose intervals must be based on the distance between note names which are based on the position locations in the staff, not their pitches.
One of the main reasons some might find music theory inscrutable comes from bumping into the later conceptions having passed too quickly over the fundamental definitions from which they are constructed. The constructed things will not make sense if the peculiar definitions of the simple things like note and interval are not used.
What is important is the conceptual difference between notes and intervals, and pitches and pitch differences. Music theory uses the former, not the latter, yet the guitar is naturally disposed to employ the latter...
Disclosure:
Clarinet from eight years old, six years classical piano from eleven, guitar three years later.
I resolved to teach myself and play by ear; I have never used any theory to play the guitar.Last edited by pauln; 03-06-2023 at 03:10 AM.
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isn’t that what the conservatoire master said to Debussy Originally Posted by ccroft
‘by whose rules do you play the piano?’
’for the pleasure of my ears!’
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knowledge can be broken down into Originally Posted by kris
explicit knowledge- (scientific learning, maths, theory wrc)
implicit knowledge (I prefer embodied knowledge as a term - stuff that you know in your bones, intuitive knowledge.)
The latter is absolutely essential to play music. Practice is about developing implicit knowledge, sometimes out of explicit knowledge (which is why it takes so long for stuff to show up in our playing.)
The former is generally highly prized by our educational system.
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Dude, plenty of jazz players (not just guitarists btw) abuse enharmony horribly and it doesn’t seem to hold their playing back. It drives me up the wall, but I think that says more about me than them. Originally Posted by pauln
OK, I'll give it a try...
There is a thing officially called music theory which is complicated and very few guitarist knows much about it. There are a lot of other things that look like music theory and some that don't that are still referred to as music theory, and even some things that are clearly not music theory but have come to be called that anyway.
Only response was Notes: pitch, Interval: space between 2 pitches. I think that would be the answer that most guitarists would offer, however the standard music theory defines these things as locations of marks in the staff (lines and spaces).
In the G treble clef, a mark on the second line from the bottom is a note called G. That note may represent multiple pitches (Gbb, Gb, G, G#, G## are all on the same line of the staff for note G). You can also see that a single pitch may be represented by multiple notes (F##, G, Abb are all the same pitch). The whole basis of accidentals is to make sure that all keys maintain diatonic scales where all note letter names are included only once (a consecutive series of lines and spaces) - the whole scheme of key signature and notes (staff locations) not being directly associated which pitch is what allows the accidentals to do this.
Intervals are the distance between notes (staff locations), not pitches. This is why C to G is a fifth (perfect fifth), and C to Gb is a fifth (diminished fifth), and C to G# is a fifth (augmented fifth). They are all fifths because the distance between notes is the same - C to G. Notes are staff locations on lines and spaces which do not change with the application of accidentals (the pitch does change), so the interval distance does not change (but the pitch distance does). This is important for example when looking at chords of stacked thirds, whose intervals must be based on the distance between note names which are based on the position locations in the staff, not their pitches.
One of the main reasons some might find music theory inscrutable comes from bumping into the later conceptions having passed too quickly over the fundamental definitions from which they are constructed. The constructed things will not make sense if the peculiar definitions of the simple things like note and interval are not used.
What is important is the conceptual difference between notes and intervals, and pitches and pitch differences. Music theory uses the former, not the latter, yet the guitar is naturally disposed to employ the latter...
Disclosure:
Clarinet from eight years old, six years classical piano from eleven, guitar three years later.
I resolved to teach myself and play by ear; I have never used any theory to play the guitar.
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Often, in academia, there's often a reason to adhere to formal definitions. On the bandstand if you say, "the bridge starts up a fifth" nobody will look at you blankly and ask "perfect, diminished or augmented?". Originally Posted by pauln
OK, I'll give it a try...
There is a thing officially called music theory which is complicated and very few guitarists know much about it. There are a lot of other things that look like music theory and some that don't that are still referred to as music theory, and even some things that are clearly not music theory but have come to be called that anyway.
Only response was Notes: pitch, Interval: space between 2 pitches. I think that would be the answer that most guitarists would offer, however the standard music theory defines these things as locations of marks in the staff (lines and spaces).
In the G treble clef, a mark on the second line from the bottom is a note called G. That note may represent multiple pitches (Gbb, Gb, G, G#, G## are all on the same line of the staff for note G). You can also see that a single pitch may be represented by multiple notes (F##, G, Abb are all the same pitch). The whole basis of accidentals is to make sure that all keys maintain diatonic scales where all note letter names are included only once (a consecutive series of lines and spaces) - the whole scheme of key signature and notes (staff locations) not being directly associated which pitch is what allows the accidentals to do this.
Intervals are the distance between notes (staff locations), not pitches. This is why C to G is a fifth (perfect fifth), and C to Gb is a fifth (diminished fifth), and C to G# is a fifth (augmented fifth). They are all fifths because the distance between notes is the same - C to G. Notes are staff locations on lines and spaces which do not change with the application of accidentals (the pitch does change), so the interval distance does not change (but the pitch distance does). This is important for example when looking at chords of stacked thirds, whose intervals must be based on the distance between note names which are based on the position locations in the staff, not their pitches.
One of the main reasons some might find music theory inscrutable comes from bumping into the later conceptions having passed too quickly over the fundamental definitions from which they are constructed. The constructed things will not make sense if the peculiar definitions of the simple things like note and interval are not used.
What is important is the conceptual difference between notes and intervals, and pitches and pitch differences. Music theory uses the former, not the latter, yet the guitar is naturally disposed to employ the latter...
Disclosure:
Clarinet from eight years old, six years classical piano from eleven, guitar three years later.
I resolved to teach myself and play by ear; I have never used any theory to play the guitar.
Note is pitch and interval is distance between pitches may not be technically correct, but it's clear enough to players. Nobody has any trouble communicating to a colleague what the next note is, by name or by interval. Nobody, for example, calls the interval C to Eb "a third". It's a "minor third" or a "flat third" or, maybe, "an augmented second". And everybody knows exactly what to play.
These distinctions strike me as linguistic, perhaps notational, but not musical. Which is how it's possible to be a great player and fail this exam. The player on the bandstand is aware of all of this, labels things differently and, as near as I can tell, isn't confused by it.
For me, the problem is that I can't define the boundaries of "theory" precisely -- and it's quite clear that others think about it much differently.
And for the use of language, it's a moving target. The academics get a vote but not a veto as things move on.
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ARRRRRRRGGGHHHHH!!!!!! C to D# is an augmented second!!!! C to Eb is a minor third. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
why can’t jazzers spell? It’s not that hard.
toxjjfiene ckeihwgklrnd alfidnrjrosnnc
(meltdown ensues)
Jazz is not a score based tradition so no one really cares. Apart from me. And pauln apparently.These distinctions strike me as linguistic, perhaps notational, but not musical. Which is how it's possible to be a great player and fail this exam. The player on the bandstand is aware of all of this, labels things differently and, as near as I can tell, isn't confused by it.
For me, the problem is that I can't define the boundaries of "theory" precisely -- and it's quite clear that others think about it much differently.
And for the use of language, it's a moving target. The academics get a vote but not a veto as things move on.
next week: why don’t you use a key signature Jamie, it’s literally a rhythm changes in Bb??!!!
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Not everybody is comfortable with an implied enharmonic. Apparently.
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I’m a literal man with a simple brain Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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"implied enharmonic"? Isn't that just a fancy way of saying 'I know I look like I wrote it down wrong, but I know it was wrong, honest?' Sure, bro it was implied. Lol Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Its laik seying that righting a sentenss laik this iz "implied correct spelling".
I'm joking... of course, it doesn't really matter much.
But it's interesting to me (and probably no one else) that the application of the seventh mode of melodic minor to jazz requires an enharmonic respelling, which means a different conception of the notes.
It changes the meaning of the scale whether it is spelt
1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7 - the super locrian (a m7b5 scale)
and
1 b2 #2 3 4 b5 b6 b7 - the altered scale (a 7b5 scale)
This, of course, breaks the alphabet rule.
The enharmony helps the - ahem - theoretical understanding of what's going on. Enharmony is a purely theoretical construct but it does have an effect on how we use things.
Similarly.. the idea that the chord is called E7#9 (which suggest the use of the altered scale) is the root of a lot of problems I was having with that chord. If I say its E7addb10 or Em/E7, that gives its real sound more correctly much of the time. Unless you use the diminished scale I suppose, where all this stuff breaks down as it's an eight note scale.
So I think being pedantic about enharmony actually does actually help clarify things. Sometimes.
OTOH if you want a chart to be as easy as possible to read, depending on the music, it's very often easier to junk these considerations. I'm going to be avoiding double flats and sharps and things, and I'm not going to be writing E7addb10 chords.Last edited by Christian Miller; 03-06-2023 at 07:55 AM.
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I use the first and call it the altered dominant scale (beware of Greeks bearing scales). When I practice alt patterns and harmonized scales that’s how I conceptualize it. It’s only a m7b5 scale if you think of it as the 7th mode of mel min a half step up, but I don’t, so I find that to be a non-issue Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Or you can avoid all that and spell it 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 b9 #9 b12 b13. Cause who says a scale can only be 7 pitches within an octave? And avoiding the perfect 4 and 5 is for wusses.
That honest to FSM truth is that I mostly I think of altered dom7 as extra notes and not as replacement notes. But I explore other ways of thinking (e.g. the Mike Stern book)Last edited by John A.; 03-06-2023 at 10:02 AM.
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Mike Stern - great musician and a great man.Meeting him is a great flow of positive energy.
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Never mistake my lack of not knowing any better for courage. Originally Posted by pauln
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I don't think this relates to my post? Originally Posted by John A.
It's OK. It's pretty niche haha.
BTW yes indeed, the Warne Marsh two octave scales are hip. I like dominant II an awful lot
1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 8 b9 b10 11 12 13
A great 13b9(#11) sound that isn't half-whole
But since Warne (maybe Lennie too) constructed these as a m(maj7) glued to the 5, b7 or b9 of a dominant chord, it all works a bit smoother somehow. The 10 is still a b11 in Dominant III, just saying. ENHARMONY FAIL. (It's fine.)
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Oh, in the secret byways of enharmony, I felt quite pleased with myself when I found this.
Standard harmonic minor chords are (in C)
Cm(maj7) Dm7b5 Ebmaj7#5 Fm7 G7 Abmaj7 Bo7 right?
Well.... you can sub in the B for a C in all the chords that have a C by calling it a Cb! Magic
C Eb G B --> Cb Eb G Cb = Cb+ = B+ (by aug symmetry obv)
D Ab F C --> D Ab F B = Do7 (by dim symmetry obv)
F A C Eb --> F A Cb Eb = Fm7b5 - extremely useful for II V I's - often considered a V altered scale thing
And my favourite
Ab C Eb G --> Ab Cb Eb G = Abm(maj7)
(Of course jazz musicians wouldn't do things in such a long winded and pedantic way, they'd just swap the B in and not care haha.)
So it turns out two of the chords I always associated with the altered scale - Fm7b5 and the Abm(maj7) are actually hidden in the C harmonic minor scale. Which is nice.
Well I thought it was cool maybe everyone knows this haha.
Mix it up with the natural minor and you get most of the commonly used altered sounds. The Ab melodic minor is not a big step from there.
It all seems more organic somehow when I think of it like this.
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