Melodic minor modes & chords

[kris]

I'm curious how you practice melodic minor modes and what chords do you use these scales for?
Scales derived from minor melodic degrees are called variously.

[James W]

I love the sound of the melodic minor. I use the last mode lots on V7 chords leading to the tonic or not, as the case may be. Also dig Lydian dominant and Locrian sharp 2 - the former I like to use on I7 and/or IV7 chords on a blues, the latter for half-diminished chords, of course.

[pingu]

If the tune is slow enough .... a ballad etc
I like the 6th mode of mms on the ii chord

But in practice
in Cm
on the Dm7b5 chord I actually think Fmm

[TheGrandWazoo]

Kris,
Bill Plake's Melodic Minor Jazz Studies is by far the best resource I have found on getting the different degrees of melodic minor under my fingers. Excellent exercises and etudes as well as specifics on not just how to apply the "modes" but also specific exercises to get the mode's sound into your ears for each application.

Melodic Minor Scale Jazz Studies | Bill Plake Music

[Tal_175]

The term MM modes I think implies the derivative approach. I personally prefer the parallel approach when it comes to MM.

What that means is, I have already internalized the dominant family (as referred to by Barry Harris, Sheryl Bailey etc) and the major scale both in terms of linear ideas and chord voicings across the fretboard. The parallel approach amounts to treating, for example, the altered scale not as the 7th mode of MM but the tritone dominant with a #4 instead of a natural 4. Or in the same vein treating MM as Dorian with a natural 7th etc. This is also how I drive chord voicings for the "MM modes" as well.

[pauln]

I invented (discovered) Lydian Dominant decades before I knew
it was a thing and had a name. I have never intentionally played
Melodic Minor, however it occurs all the time in my playing as an
artifact because Melodic Minor is one mode of Lydian Dominant.
I think I found Lydian Dominant first because it directly connects
to other things like diminished, augmented, and whole tone, etc.

[rpjazzguitar]

Jazz Theory by Mark Levine has an excellent presentation of melodic minor modes.

It makes the point that all chords generated by melodic minor are the same chord -- interchangeable -- because there's no avoid note. The bass note becomes a distinguishing factor.

If you just take the tertiary chords, you get (I'll do Cmelmin for clarity) Cminmaj7, Dsusb9 (strictly speaking this should be Dm7b9, but Levine argues for Dsusb9 instead - the b9 interval doesn't sound good in a m7), Ebmaj7#5, F7#11, G7b13, Am7b5, B7alt.

And, they're all the same chord. But, you can also build chords by taking any voicing you like and moving it through the scale. (That is, start with any voicing composed of the notes from the scale, and then move each note to the next higher note in the scale on the same string). Mostly, they'll be interchangeable, although I have come up with a few outliers.

All that said, it would be good to know the 7 tertiary chords (minmaj7 susb9 etc) for each melmin scale (12 keys). That's a lot of work. But, the next time you see a chart with a Bb7#11, you'll instantly know 7 ways to play it.

Here's an example. Consider Ellington's Take The A Train in Eb. Second chord is F7#11. Instead of F7#11, try any of the chords I listed above that Levine asserts are interchangeable. To my ear a lot of them work pretty well. Bear in mind the bass note is still F.

[Christian Miller]

I'm curious how you practice melodic minor modes and what chords do you use these scales for?
Scales derived from minor melodic degrees are called variously.

Well there’s tons of stuff you can do.

Make sure you apply to tunes. You can apply to every chord but the greatest opportunity arises when there’s time to explore a chord in depth. That Deon’s have to be modal tunes. Limehouse blues is really fun for this.

-I like to play them in fourths and fifths over the neck
I’m practicing quartal Mick Goodrick cycles through tunes.
-I like Jordan Klemons approach - just taking a triad and adding a note to it. There’s lots you can use for melodic minor. Add9 and majaddb6 are nice ones.
- old School augmented voicings such as 5 x 5 4 4 x are nice

[Christian Miller]

Oh F melodic minor on G7 is boss and I always forget to play it

[Tal_175]

Sorry Kris if this is stretching the discussion too far but I have a question.
Isn't altered scale practically the back door dominant with a b9? That's what I'm practicing lately.

Let's take Yesterdays:
Emin7b5-Aalt -> Dmin6

Isn't that just C7b9 -> Dmin6 ?

In other words,
C7-> Emin7b5, Gmin7, BbMaj (other members of the family)

Aalt:
b9 #9 (Bb and C from C7)
b6 (F from Gmin7)
3 (C# our beloved b9 on C7 or Edim instead of Emin7b5)

Ok maybe more like Phrygian dominant since with don't have a b5 (Eb) but that's tricky to deal with anyway.

[rpjazzguitar]

Aalt is A Bb C Db Eb F G

C7b9 is Bb C Db E G

C7b9 is usually associated with CHWdim which is:

C Db Eb E Gb G A Bb.

Same notes as A HW.

If you reorder it, you can get A C# E G (a basic A7) plus b9 #9 and #11. You also get the 13th.

Anyway, no surprise that an A(dominant something) resolves to a D (minor something).

But, the notes aren't exactly the same. As a practical matter, you could think about one and adjust it on the fly if you're hearing the sound of the other.

[Tal_175]

Aalt is A Bb C Db Eb F G

C7b9 is Bb C Db E G

C7b9 is usually associated with CHWdim which is:

C Db Eb E Gb G A Bb.

Same notes as A HW.

If you reorder it, you can get A C# E G (a basic A7) plus b9 #9 and #11. You also get the 13th.

Anyway, no surprise that an A(dominant something) resolves to a D (minor something).

But, the notes aren't exactly the same. As a practical matter, you could think about one and adjust it on the fly if you're hearing the sound of the other.

13th would be F# right? I don't think you get the 13th. But you get F (b13) from Gmin7.

[pauln]

Oh F melodic minor on G7 is boss and I always forget to play it

It is 'cause F Melodic Minor is the
fifth mode of Bb Lydian Dominant
whose sixth mode is G Dorian b9
Advantage of LD perspective here
is the similarity to "up a minor 3rd"

[kris]

minor mel modes:
1 mel min
2 dorian b2
3 lydian #5
4 lydian b7
5 mixolydian b6
6 aeolian b5
7 super locrian/altered/

do you use these names?

[Alter]

You have three modes that are very useful and common: Melodic minor, altered, and Lydian b7 (or Mixolydian #11). Then you have the other 4, not so common but still useful:

The way I see them:

1. Melodic minor scale, easily played as a color over min7 and min6 chords.

2.Dorian b2 (aka Phrygian #6). The least useful mode, but can be used both over a min7 or a dom7 chord as color, as it hints at both the blues and the diminished scale.

3.Lydian #11, played over maj7#5 chords, or as color over maj7 chords.

4.Lydian #7 (or mixolydian #11). Played over all dom7 chords that don't function as secondary dominants.

5.Mixolydian b6, played as color over dom7 chords.

6.Locrian natural 9, played as color over min7b5 chords.

7.Altered scale, a scale that alters both the 5th and 9th degrees, a common out playing vehicle over dominants.

The chords of the melodic minor scale are very useful also, as they introduce new chord forms and combinations (and the same with arpeggios).

Overall it's a scale I really like and use all its modes and chords a lot.

[kris]

There is a nice video about dorian b2 scale.Very nice chord progressions:

[rpjazzguitar]

13th would be F# right? I don't think you get the 13th. But you get F (b13) from Gmin7.

\

The A HW diminished scale is A Bb C Db Eb E Gb G. So, it includes the notes of A7, which are A Db E G. It also includes four more notes. These are the b9, #9 and #11 ... and ... Gb which is the natural 13th.

The b13 occurs in fifth mode melodic minor. That is, if you start Cmel min from the G note ... you get G A B C D Eb F. Somewhere in there is a G7b13. ,

[Christian Miller]

Oh this another approach (the vid gets there eventually)

using madd9. This is nice because you don’t have to deal with the seventh haha

arguably unless you include the seventh of the
melodic minor it doesn’t really count as a melodic minor but you use the same logic (or for the m6-dim.)

[Christian Miller]

It is 'cause F Melodic Minor is the
fifth mode of Bb Lydian Dominant
whose sixth mode is G Dorian b9
Advantage of LD perspective here
is the similarity to "up a minor 3rd"

it’s a less obvious choice because it doesn’t include the third of the dominant chord (it’s usually used for 7sus4b9 in the Berkleeoid mode manuals) but only nerds play the 3rd on the dominant amirite?

to my ears it makes it a better choice for 7#9 than the altered. Try it.

Its also the upper part of one of the three two octave dominant scales of the Tristano school

[Christian Miller]

Sorry Kris if this is stretching the discussion too far but I have a question.
Isn't altered scale practically the back door dominant with a b9? That's what I'm practicing lately.

Let's take Yesterdays:
Emin7b5-Aalt -> Dmin6

Isn't that just C7b9 -> Dmin6 ?

In other words,
C7-> Emin7b5, Gmin7, BbMaj (other members of the family)

Aalt:
b9 #9 (Bb and C from C7)
b6 (F from Gmin7)
3 (C# our beloved b9 on C7 or Edim instead of Emin7b5)

Ok maybe more like Phrygian dominant since with don't have a b5 (Eb) but that's tricky to deal with anyway.

Yeah, the operative note is the b5. Otherwise it’s just a regular minor key dominant. Maybe with a #9/b10 cross relation (ooh that’s a talking point - 7#9 isn’t altered. The most misunderstood chord in jazz theory… Anyway… another time.)

I think of that as a monk sound. Of course if you are monk you are as likely to play whole tone on it, which is not far from the altered/melodic minor itself

G A B C# D# F
G Ab Bb B C# D# F

What’s that Thelonious? You want to do it on literally every dominant on Sweet Georgia Brown? Ok let’s gooooooo

of course the really cool scale is the Messiaen mode 3/7b5-dim but that’s a thread for the cool kids (ie not me because I keep forgetting to practice it, tbf Barry Harris said he hadn’t got into it as much as he would like either.)

[Christian Miller]

Tbh there’s often not much better to do on a dominant than play 7b5 arps. Covers a lot of bases.

[djg]

Tbh there’s often not much better to do on a dominant than play 7b5 arps. Covers a lot of bases.

[Christian Miller]

oh, very clever. Give yourself 10 points.

Right, time for a Devils advocate I see…. At least if you paint by numbers it looks nice. Otoh some people who shall go nameless feel the need inflict their creative daubings on the general population. Are you actually a Barnet Newman or just a twit with a canvas?

The brutal truth is most improvisation done by most people doesn’t sound great. The people we all admire are the very top of a crazy mountain of knowledge and experience who could come up with something people might want to listen to that way (although maybe less spontaneously than the popular image might suggest.) For everyone else it’s a nice release for us creatively perhaps and a lot of fun, but it’s not like I expect the audience to be into necessarily.

quite honestly you could suggest the Barry Harris system or various old school styles of teaching painting, music etc as being a bit like ‘paint by numbers.’ Or transcribing ii V licks and putting them on tunes. (More so than chord scales in fact which just give you a bunch of paints and say ‘good luck, have fun!’.)

All are entry points into the craft.

I think things ‘sounding good superficially’ is underrated. Praxis can naff off. 7b5’s are baller.

so put that in your pipe and smoke it. :-)

[alltunes]

-I like Jordan Klemons approach - just taking a triad and adding a note to it.

I took Jordan’s Seven Days to Melodic Minor Course recently and also like his approach. As you say he starts off with a triad and then adds notes to it. So rather than thinking of scales or modes what you end up with is a pitch collection to “paint” with. It is another way to look at MM.

i.e. play a C major triad over an E7.

[Tal_175]

\

The A HW diminished scale is A Bb C Db Eb E Gb G. So, it includes the notes of A7, which are A Db E G. It also includes four more notes. These are the b9, #9 and #11 ... and ... Gb which is the natural 13th.

The b13 occurs in fifth mode melodic minor. That is, if you start Cmel min from the G note ... you get G A B C D Eb F. Somewhere in there is a G7b13. ,

Thanks. I think we are talking about different things. C7 (as in mixolydian) to Dmin would be just D Natural minor. If we add the leading note (C#) with C7b9 we get D harmonic minor (or C mixolydian becomes A phrygian dominant). But like Christian said without the b5 it ain't MM which is what the OP is interested in.

One interesting thing is that, C# also makes C7 the bebop scale. Or from the point of view of the important minor (Gmin) it's the blue note (b5 of G minor blues scale). That blue note turns the vanilla C7 into A7b9b13. Anyway that's too many nerdy connections.