Melodic minor modes & chords

[Christian Miller]

One of my teachers named scales by chord names, as in "play a G7#11 scale". I knew which notes he meant. I'd have known too if he'd said "G lydian dominant".

If he wanted some other alteration of G7, say a G7b9b13, the chord name would still tell me all the notes I needed. Having to think "fifth mode CHarmMin" would take me longer.

And, when I'm playing, if I'm thinking about harmony at all, it is likely to be based on chord subs, not scale names. And, I figure that if I'm off by a note or two from Nettles and Graf, I can adjust by ear.

I guess there's a disadvantage if you know fingerings for, say, melodic minor, and you want to use them for the various chords which take mel min. Then, I guess, somebody might think "G7#11? That's D melodic minor and I can get the chord tones on the downbeats by starting my usual fingering on G .... ".

Sometimes I can hear that in a solo and I usually prefer solos where I can't hear that kind of thinking.

Obviously, you can get to the same place either way. I'm sure I must be missing some advantage to the scale name approa

the advantage of the other way if you know a million ways to play on, say, the dominant/mixo scale and can apply that to 80% of the chords you come across, you can play a lot of music with what you already know. This is how Barry harris works, for instance. you master a load of bebop language based on one scale and apply it everywhere.

The Mark Levine ‘melodic minor voicing’ thing you mentioned above is the same sort of logic.

lot of mental arithmetic though and can take a while before it’s second nature, but once it is, playing changes is pretty easy and you get maximum bang for your buck. Once you have something you can put on minor, it goes on dominant, altered dominant, half diminished, and extended major etc.

A problem with parallel thinking is you can find yourself emphasising too much the bottom of the chord if you aren’t careful. Chord theory is … kind of upside down for guitarists? Jordan imploded my brain when he pointed out that the ‘resting notes’ of a Cmaj7 chord are, E B and G while C is actually a dissonant tension. Crazy right? But try it.

So, over the C maj7 chord, C is a dissonant note. Once you start hearing that, you can’t unhear it. That’s actually well known in arranging 101 but I’d never heard it framed like that before as a general rule.

the tensions are not tensions. They are the resting notes.

Similarly, the consonant notes on C7#9#5 are given by the Ab triad, not the C7(b5) chord.

[rpjazzguitar]

This is how Barry harris works, for instance. you master a load of bebop language based on one scale and apply it everywhere.

In that sentence I think the key might be the part about "master a load of bebop language".

I see a way to effective soloing by focusing on mixolydian (as a pool of notes, not a rigidly ordered arrangement, which means I could have said major or dorian etc) and learning a lot of situations in which it can be applied. From there, adjust just a note or two and there are a myriad of possibilities.

But first, on the way to good soloing, focus on good time and good melody.

The problem I've had with practicing scales is that my fingers gravitate to them unless I make an effort to control them. It would probably be better if my fingers gravitated towards jazz vocabulary.

[Christian Miller]

In that sentence I think the key might be the part about "master a load of bebop language".

I see a way to effective soloing by focusing on mixolydian (as a pool of notes, not a rigidly ordered arrangement, which means I could have said major or dorian etc) and learning a lot of situations in which it can be applied. From there, adjusting just a note or two and there are a myriad of possibilities.

But first, on the way to good soloing, focus on good time and good melody.

The problem I've had with practicing scales is that my fingers gravitate to them unless I make an effort to control them. It would probably be better if my fingers gravitated towards jazz vocabulary.

Barry offers a route to get from scales to jazz (bebop) vocab…. It’s not that big a step actually, that’s the interesting thing.

One of the first bits of advice I heard was that you shouldn’t play scales too stepwise. But dipping into Bach or Bird reveals rather a lot of exactly that. in fact there’s few more effective things you can do than play a step wise scale in the right place. It’s all over music. But of course what they mean is that sort of timid, halting thing beginners do where they creep around from note to note, not sure if what will come out…

The craft (not the art, the craft) lies in understanding how to create coherent lines from scalar and chordal raw materials… beyond simply listening to and transcribing a bunch of lines (which is cool), Barry offers a clear road map which is not quite unique afaik, but not something I see much of. It’s easier to discuss harmony than melody, it seems.

[Reg]

Yea... who cares, if what one does works. Why bother...

The thing about names etc... they do sometimes comes into play... when composing or arranging.(and playing) I tend to hear modes with characteristic pitches and different BS harmonic movement and relationships . Like when I see, hear or from analysis decide on either Bb7#11 or lydian Dom. To me there is a difference. The Bb7#11 implies secondary motion or function, where as when I see Bb13#11 ....I see and hear Modal versions and guidelines , I see and hear and use different chord patterns. Sometimes it's not just the label, it's the relationship and their developments. I do get it... like I said if what you do works... why bother.

here's an old vid I posted that's very modal...

[Christian Miller]

This might well lead onto the ‘why can’t jazz musicians spell?’ and ‘what’s your beef with key signatures Jamie? it’s literally a rhythm changes in B flat!’ rants

i swear jazz educators just want to make everything look as complicated and use as much ink as possible

Mind you you nutters still use imperial, so all bets are off, which is weird because you quite sensibly tidied up your cities into nice grids

right, I’m off to decimalise time. See you in a kilosecond. Vive la revolution!

[kris]

[Reg]

the advantage of the other way if you know a million ways to play on, say, the dominant/mixo scale and can apply that to 80% of the chords you come across, you can play a lot of music with what you already know. This is how Barry harris works, for instance. you master a load of bebop language based on one scale and apply it everywhere.

The Mark Levine ‘melodic minor voicing’ thing you mentioned above is the same sort of logic.

lot of mental arithmetic though and can take a while before it’s second nature, but once it is, playing changes is pretty easy and you get maximum bang for your buck. Once you have something you can put on minor, it goes on dominant, altered dominant, half diminished, and extended major etc.

A problem with parallel thinking is you can find yourself emphasising too much the bottom of the chord if you aren’t careful. Chord theory is … kind of upside down for guitarists? Jordan imploded my brain when he pointed out that the ‘resting notes’ of a Cmaj7 chord are, E B and G while C is actually a dissonant tension. Crazy right? But try it.

So, over the C maj7 chord, C is a dissonant note. Once you start hearing that, you can’t unhear it. That’s actually well known in arranging 101 but I’d never heard it framed like that before as a general rule.

the tensions are not tensions. They are the resting notes.

Similarly, the consonant notes on C7#9#5 are given by the Ab triad, not the C7(b5) chord.

I must be an upside down guitarist...LOL I think Jordon is great and always dig his posts and playing... but your talking or he's talking about arranging and voicings and the point is to get past 101 anything. "C" as a dissonant is almost silly.
I guess one can do just about anything and make it work in some context. But generally I'm just down the middle, not vanilla... just a few standard Jazz colors... but not complicated and usually very easy to hear, and easy to play if one gets their guitar skills together. Personally the bottom is where one should be aware of and thinking or hearing.
Yea I know... and BB's use to really dig it when I played Bass, which I did for a while.

[GuyBoden]

I ask myself and the OP, is Melodic Minor a good scale for creating chords?

[Christian Miller]

I must be an upside down guitarist...LOL I think Jordon is great and always dig his posts and playing... but your talking or he's talking about arranging and voicings and the point is to get past 101 anything. "C" as a dissonant is almost silly.

I'll post Stefon discussing it as it's his way of looking at things (sorry crummy audio, but gets the point across.)

I presume you know about the thing where you don't harmonise a C melody with a C maj7 but with a C6? That's pretty basic, right?

There's some hand wavy reason often given involving the minor second or ninth (as if we aren't tolerant of those in other settings) but it's a manifestation of a deeper principle, that I think of as 'the primacy of the upper extensions'. People do say that the minor ninth/second in general is more dissonant than the major seventh. Maybe? But that seems simplistic to me.

Jordan/Stefon Harris understand it differently, and I prefer their way of looking at it. The C major seventh is a composite sound - a C shell voicing in the left hand supporting an E minor triadic structure in the right. The E minor triadic structure is its own tonal thing that stands separate and the C does indeed sound quite jangly over it. From a CST perspective, you could even say, the correct scale on Cmaj7 is not C ionian, but E Phrygian. (AFAIK some do indeed teach it this way.) Doing this gives you the better emphasis and also the correct avoid notes (b9 and b13 or F and C). But that's just the simplest example.

In general I would say it's a good way of understanding how the same pitch set can sound so different depending on voicing.

For some (like Jonathan Kreisberg and Ben Monder) it's a feature rather than a bug. If you play this for instance

3 x 2 4 1 x
or this
x 7 9 x 8 8
It's an interesting, and slightly weird sound. It gets used on soundtracks to suggest an unstable, Emaddb6 tonality. The Matrix comes to mind.

What it isn't is this

x 3 5 4 5 x

So, we can make an unstable 'weird' maj7 for a stable one by reversing the B and C, so starting with familiar voicings in inversion (so the inversion is unchanged)

3 3 2 4 x x --> 3 2 2 5 x x
x 7 10 x 8 7 --> x 7 9 x 8 8
x x 5 5 5 7 --> x x 5 4 5 8
and so on

TBH I can't imagine you playing these voicings haha, but they are used by some.

I guess one can do just about anything and make it work in some context. But generally I'm just down the middle, not vanilla... just a few standard Jazz colors... but not complicated and usually very easy to hear, and easy to play if one gets their guitar skills together. Personally the bottom is where one should be aware of and thinking or hearing.

Fnar fnar

Well, it's where swing guitar is tbf. Someone has to deal with the ... errr... bottom, for there to be a top to have fun with. Dear oh dear. What was I talking about again? Ah yes, nerdy harmony shit.

In any case, when Mahler writes an E on an F major he hears the yearning disonnance against the F triad, which however softly and belatedly, must be resolved. When Louis played an E on an F triad back in the 20s, he heard the primacy of the Am triad as a separate tonality supported by the F chord, but itself legitimate. That's how colouristic jazz harmony was born.

In jazz the major seventh chord is most often to used to support a seventh or third in the melody, so it's all good. You do sometimes see stuff like this:

HNNNNNGGGGGGGGG.

It hurts us!

[Christian Miller]

BTW this is why chord subs are in my opinion a better way of working that thinking of 'upper extensions' - in theory it maybe the same thing, but in practice if I sub an Em7 on a Cmaj7 chord rather than Cmaj9 I'm giving things that right weight. Which of course is how jazz players have done it for generations.

Anyway as this is a melodic minor thread, you might think for instance a C+ triad on D7 rather than D9#11, an E triad on a C+ instead of Cmaj7#5, or a Ebmaj7#5 on Cm instead of Cm9(maj7) and so on. This is all stock stuff of course, but Stefon's insight ties it all together.

[pauln]

I've been thinking the "Settled Science" was dissonance not strictly the
attribute of pitch class with respect to harmony, more a pitch position
whose analysis assumes scales are multi octave objects. The harmony
has the chord tone octave (1-8), an extension octave above (9-13), and
a sub-octave "missing bass". Lots of big chords on the guitar can span
two octaves; so it becomes important to know the context whether an
upper is the chord tones with the lower playing missing bass notes, or
if the lower has the chord tone octave and the upper is the extension.

That is from which comes some misnaming of 2/9, b5/#11, 6/13; more
importantly harmony and dissonance change with octave assignment.

[ragman1]

The C major seventh is a composite sound - a C shell voicing in the left hand supporting an E minor triadic structure in the right. The E minor triadic structure is its own tonal thing that stands separate and the C does indeed sound quite jangly over it. From a CST perspective, you could even say, the correct scale on Cmaj7 is not C ionian, but E Phrygian. (AFAIK some do indeed teach it this way.)

God almighty, you don't 'alf complicate the most simple things! It's pretty obvious that if you play the middle C note (1st fret, 2nd string) over a CM7 it clangs because it conflicts with the B right next to it. But it's usually okay with the top C (8th fret, top string). And the bottom C's okay too. All depending on the tune, of course.

In any case, ending a tune with C6 is generally much nicer anyway, more stable. I mean, all this is fairly obvious when we actually play it so why don't we trust our ears more? I think we're afraid to mess with what's on the page.

[Reg]

yea Christian... I understand where your coming from... but I still think of those issues as arranging... how one voices lead lines.

I know you've seen enough of my vids to know.. I know how to voice lead lines. I tend to see and understand using different triads as like using an extra step for teaching one how to play, standard performance technique issues for instruments.

There are many ways to accomplish the same things.... Again if it works for you, cool. I'm as I said simple... even though the results sometimes sound complicated. The complications are just a technique thing. I have very good guitar technique, which enables me to have more thoughts going on in my head while I play live. I'm not saying good or bad... just the level of performance.

Guy B ...MM is a great scale for creating and using Blue Note chords. Years ago another forum member wanted a MM chord progression...I posted a few. But I tend to use MM as a harmonic and melodic tool for creating references with common Chord Patterns. It's another tool for creating Musical organization when playing Jazz.

[Christian Miller]

God almighty, you don't 'alf complicate the most simple things! It's pretty obvious that if you play the middle C note (1st fret, 2nd string) over a CM7 it clangs because it conflicts with the B right next to it. But it's usually okay with the top C (8th fret, top string). And the bottom C's okay too. All depending on the tune, of course.

No that’s not it. The B sounds weird below a C in any octave. It’s nothing to do with the interval. It changes the character of the chord.

in fact in the vid Stefon demonstrates that even an Eb sounds better on a Cmaj7 chord than a C (in his opinion at least with which I agree.) have a listen

[rpjazzguitar]

I've been thinking the "Settled Science" was dissonance not strictly the
attribute of pitch class with respect to harmony, more a pitch position
whose analysis assumes scales are multi octave objects. The harmony
has the chord tone octave (1-8), an extension octave above (9-13), and
a sub-octave "missing bass". Lots of big chords on the guitar can span
two octaves; so it becomes important to know the context whether an
upper is the chord tones with the lower playing missing bass notes, or
if the lower has the chord tone octave and the upper is the extension.

That is from which comes some misnaming of 2/9, b5/#11, 6/13; more
importantly harmony and dissonance change with octave assignment.

The theory is somewhere beyond me, which is not necessarily complimentary to it.

All of Me starts with a C melody over Cmaj7. When I play the B a b9 below the C as in 8x998x the melody doesn't strike as dissonant at all.
But, it does require that low C. If I play xx9988 it sounds harsher to me. The b9 interval jumps out more.

Opening a chord melody, rubato, with x 15 14 16 13 x (easier to play up there) puts the B a half step below the C. Dissonant, but not harsh to my ear.

Ergo the concept of "dissonance" strikes me as surprisingly context-sensitive. So, if I were to try to construct a personal theory (that is, what characteristics contribute to my personal sense of what is consonant, dissonant and/or harsh) it would have to include which octave for each chord tone, which melody note and which bass note. I have no idea how to codify it, but those are the concepts which inform my choice of chord.

[Christian Miller]

yea Christian... I understand where your coming from... but I still think of those issues as arranging... how one voices lead lines.

I know you've seen enough of my vids to know.. I know how to voice lead lines. I tend to see and understand using different triads as like using an extra step for teaching one how to play, standard performance technique issues for instruments.

I’m not 100% sure I have… but I would say that mostly you use standardish grips where this would not be a problem- if you are harmonising a lead line you are going to be using voicings of maj7 that have a 3rd or 7th in the soprano. For a 1 or a 5 I think you probs grab a 6/9z (No shade, lots of my favourite compers do that.)

I kind of see that as a separate thing though. If you are discussing MM for me this is colouristic harmony, not voice leading, I tend not to think of voice leading that way, and the way. tbf I’m not sure I follow you most of the time, but I remember you mentioning sort of pre baking harmonisations of the scale and applying those. In this case one would select that voicings that sound good and go from there NBD, and this sort of thing is unlikely to be a problem.

Otoh for line construction and thinking about harmony in general, the thing about Stefon and Jordan is they changed the way I hear chords. The Cmaj7 thing, kind of can’t unhear it once you start hearing it.

Problem is a lot of people play x 3 5 4 5 x or something as a default major voicing without actually hearing it or realising that not all major sounds are interchangeable. I don’t mean to be hoity toity… but urgh. I think being specific about voicings is good?

Anyway I think this approach has given me a good way to access sounds in a simple, direct and effective way.

[Christian Miller]

The theory is somewhere beyond me, which is not necessarily complimentary to it.

All of Me starts with a C melody over Cmaj7. When I play the B a b9 below the C as in 8x998x the melody doesn't strike as dissonant at all.

The first chord of All of Me is C6. This is corrected in the sixth edition of the real book.

In the case of All of Me you’re dealing with a very mainstream old school tune which is sensitive to this type of thing… it’s stylistic. if it was a Wayne chart or something maybe…

I mean 8 x 9 9 8 8 is just minging (my wife described it as a bit sour, which I think is a good descriptor, less judgmental haha.)

compare to 8 x 7 7 8 8 and 8 x 9 9 8 7

you could move the first chord into either of the other two and it would sound like resolution. Try it.

if you can’t hear that internal dissonance, have a watch of that stefon harris video.

But, it does require that low C. If I play xx9988 it sounds harsher to me. The b9 interval jumps out more.
.

Yeah, it’s more prominent being in the soprano and bass. Third inversion major seventh chords do not function as major chords in any case.

[Reg]

I’m not 100% sure I have… but I would say that mostly you use standardish grips where this would not be a problem- if you are harmonising a lead line you are going to be using voicings of maj7 that have a 3rd or 7th in the soprano. For a 1 or a 5 I think you probs grab a 6/9z (No shade, lots of my favourite compers do that.)

I kind of see that as a separate thing though. If you are discussing MM for me this is colouristic harmony, not voice leading, I tend not to think of voice leading that way, and the way. tbf I’m not sure I follow you most of the time, but I remember you mentioning sort of pre baking harmonisations of the scale and applying those. In this case one would select that voicings that sound good and go from there NBD, and this sort of thing is unlikely to be a problem.

Otoh for line construction and thinking about harmony in general, the thing about Stefon and Jordan is they changed the way I hear chords. The Cmaj7 thing, kind of can’t unhear it once you start hearing it.

Problem is a lot of people play x 3 5 4 5 x or something as a default major voicing without actually hearing it or realising that not all major sounds are interchangeable. I don’t mean to be hoity toity… but urgh. I think being specific about voicings is good?

Anyway I think this approach has given me a good way to access sounds in a simple, direct and effective way.

Well we could start posting examples of how to comp through different tunes. Maybe pick 10 or so, some different styles... or 20... I don't need to rehears... maybe even play a few same tunes in different styles which would show how styles change chords and the actual chord pattern we play.

I've been trying to do this anyway...how does one get things done... deadlines LOL I'm thinking this would be much easier to see and hear for most.

[Reg]

I'm thinking we could have whom ever wants to, also post comping examples... we can all pick up some tricks of other players bag... maybe even some of those swing is a feel guys

[rpjazzguitar]

The first chord of All of Me is C6. This is corrected in the sixth edition of the real book.

In the case of All of Me you’re dealing with a very mainstream old school tune which is sensitive to this type of thing… it’s stylistic. if it was a Wayne chart or something maybe…

I mean 8 x 9 9 8 8 is just minging (my wife described it as a bit sour, which I think is a good descriptor, less judgmental haha.)

compare to 8 x 7 7 8 8 and 8 x 9 9 8 7

you could move the first chord into either of the other two and it would sound like resolution. Try it.

if you can’t hear that internal dissonance, have a watch of that stefon harris video.


Yeah, it’s more prominent being in the soprano and bass. Third inversion major seventh chords do not function as major chords in any case.

I can speak for what sounds good to my ear.

I like All of Me fine with a Cmaj7 as the first chord. I've been playing it that way since before the Real Book. Iirc, my first teacher had me alternating Cmaj7 to C6 at the beginning of All of Me. I believe that was a common movement in the big band era --- because my teacher, who was one of those guys in the 30s and 40s, used it all the time.

But, not with a C on the high E string.

It sounds better to me if I sing the C, or if another instrument plays it.

Did I mention that timbre seems to matter too?

[ragman1]

No that’s not it. The B sounds weird below a C in any octave. It’s nothing to do with the interval. It changes the character of the chord.

The B sounds weird below a C? Of course, that's why the C sounds weird above the B! What are you talking about? The B does not sound weird on a CM7 so you're presumably talking about a straight C major chord. But jazz doesn't use straight C maj chords that often...

in fact in the vid Stefon demonstrates that even an Eb sounds better on a Cmaj7 chord than a C (in his opinion at least with which I agree.) have a listen

I don't have to listen. An Eb sounds good on a CM7 because it's the b3. Nice minor/major/alt sound like the blues. No prob there although it ought to resolve one way or the other, not just hang.

[Christian Miller]

I can speak for what sounds good to my ear.

Eell

I like All of Me fine with a Cmaj7 as the first chord. I've been playing it that way since before the Real Book. Iirc, my first teacher had me alternating Cmaj7 to C6 at the beginning of All of Me. I believe that was a common movement in the big band era --- because my teacher, who was one of those guys in the 30s and 40s, used it all the time.

Indeed it is. Back then maj7 was used as a passing chord to the 6. Think Tea for Two. (I call it ‘tea for twoing’) Actually 7-6 suspensions date back a few centuries…. In this case the maj7 is being treated as a dissonance or passing chord like in classical harmony.

Even though unresolved maj7 were rare in accompaniment they weren’t rare in solo lines and melodies. The melody of Struttin with some Barbeque (L’il Hardin) for instance leans on the maj7 over the major backing in a way you wouldn’t hear in a classical melody. That was in I want to say 1926, so jazzers have been doing this a while.

But, not with a C on the high E string.

It sounds better to me if I sing the C, or if another instrument plays it.

Did I mention that timbre seems to matter too?

I think this is true. I still hear it though.

[Christian Miller]

The B sounds weird below a C? Of course, that's why the C sounds weird above the B! What are you talking about? The B does not sound weird on a CM7 so you're presumably talking about a straight C major chord. But jazz doesn't use straight C maj chords that often...

No. See above with the voicings and stuff. The one you moaned about being too complicated.

I don't have to listen. An Eb sounds good on a CM7 because it's the b3. Nice minor/major/alt sound like the blues. No prob there although it ought to resolve one way or the other, not just hang.

maj7#9 can sit there. Check out the video if you are interested in learning more, which I somehow doubt.

[Christian Miller]

I'm thinking we could have whom ever wants to, also post comping examples... we can all pick up some tricks of other players bag... maybe even some of those swing is a feel guys

sounds like fun. It would also be good to have examples of people comping for a solo or melody voice

[ragman1]

No. See above with the voicings and stuff. The one you moaned about being too complicated.

Stefon is taking it out of context. He STARTS with a C on CM7 and obviously it clashes. Personally I'd never do that, I'd start somewhere else.

In any case, all the examples I've been thinking of are ENDING with a C, not starting with one. And I've changed my mind, they all sound pretty good to me.

As for the Eb, he resolved it to E natural. Well, of course he did.

Can I be honest? I don't want to sound superior or anything but this is just real beginner stuff. We're making it sound so important but it's not. If it sounds okay, it's okay. But if the players have no ear or natural ability what can you do?

I can't believe that this is supposed to be a masterclass. Masterclass means advanced, right? He asks them what they'd play over a CM7 chord and there's a horrible silence. Eventually a small voice says nervously 'C major scale?'. This was a masterclass?