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My question is, if you're going to play pop/rock tunes that have simple melody and harmony in an instrumental or improvised jazz style, do you by definition want to embellish and play more technical stuff than in the parent tune? And how do you go about this?
My thought is yes. Since you're going from popular music where the feeling is the most important and the music doesn't have to be technical, to art music where the technicality of the music is part of the point.
Take this simple tune. Very simple harmony and melody but nice feels. Wouldn't you by definition have to embellish the simple chords and melody somehow to play it well instrumentally?
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10-11-2022 05:27 AM
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For me it's playing simple music really well (moving people) is the higher form of art. However, in composing (or arranging) music I'd probably consider writing something that sounds (much) easier than it is the higher form of art.
Two very different arrangers who usually manage the latter (and would probably manager the former too) and whom I usually appreciate quite a bit are Justin Johnson and Gabriella Quevedo.
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I agree, but I'm talking about just playing instrumentally solo. I don't do any front person-ing or contribute to a band.
Say for the verse, I played those 2 triads in my left hand on piano, and played the simple melody in my right hand? Do you think that would be an adequate instrumental performance? I don't.
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Focusing on the melody worked well for Chet Atkins. You could try harder and do a lot worse.
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Great question, J,
And, there is History for the answer. Firstly, it depends on your genre. If it's Jazz, R@B, Funk, C@W, Rock, Acid, etc. I think a musician needs to be somewhat faithful to the genre. A Funk band would likely lose its audience if they used C@W chords in C@W style. It doesn't fit the genre unless you're trying to create New Music: Funk Western. However, there is a whole tradition of Jazzers playing Pop songs in a Jazz Style: Gene Ammons, Houston Person, Tony Bennett, Stanley Turrentine, Grover Washington, David Sanborn, George Benson, Eddie Harris, Wes Montgomery, etc.... However, if you're a cover band, you need to be faithful to the genre and the music. So, in re: your above song, I don't think I could answer it fairly since Rock Music is really foreign to me and my background. However, anything could improve some of the "Cowboy Chords" used in the above video if you stay within the genre. I hope this answered your question.
Marinero
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Thanks. This is for solo piano or organ. How to doctor it up so it isn't cowboy chord and 3 note melody yet still does justice to the original style.
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Since you mention Nirvana, these might inspire you...
Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
You might want to check out the whole album 'New Standards'.
Ok, I thought I heard Lionel Loueke once do a hip solo rendition of 'Smells Like Teen Spirit' on guitar but I can't find it, but there is though (not as good though):
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I think the Nirvana song is a poor choice because I doubt many will recognize the tune if you aren't singing the lyrics. If you're doing a cover you want the audience to recognize it, right?
You have to search out songs that have really strong melodies that are recognizable. Sounds like jazz standards. But, Beatles songs work well. Smells Like Teen Spirit, that works, I can recognize that melody standing on its own.
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Over static harmony (I didn’t say modal) Barry Harris’ 6th diminished scale of chords is GREAT.
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^ You're right, I should just BH it up. I was thinking not since it's rock but I'll give it a shot.
I'm talking about my own playing, not playing out. I get how to choose songs that are somewhat rich like a jazz tune so they lend themselves to being played in an instrumental and improvised way. I play some Beatles songs and some Elliott Smith songs which are like that. Radiohead can hold up as well. Originally Posted by fep
I'm specifically asking about simpler tunes like the one I posted where you have to make something of it instrumentally beyond playing the basics of the tune.
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But doesn't extracting just the melody from just about any song give a simple tune? IMHO it's what the composer did with harmony and counterpoint that determines how rich the piece is you end up with.
Fugues are the perfect example of that. For who didn't know: originally those were the multi-voice improvisations organists would play, typically over a fragment of some liturgical song (i.e. something simple enough to be sung along with by the masses
) while the priest was busy doing other things than talking their heads off. I had an uncle who was quite good at doing that, even with tunes that were nothing more than random notes hammered out by his 5 yo nephew. A hausmusik version of die Kunst der Fuge 
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Yes. Something about the melody being simple, the harmony being simple, and the style being different makes it feel different to approach. Just trying to get different perspectives on how to doctor up a simple pop tune and play it convincingly while doing justice to the original style and not completely departing and making a different tune out of it. Originally Posted by RJVB
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Food for thought:
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John A,
Wes's "A Day in the Life" was the album that first opened my eyes to Jazz Guitar. I still have it in my LP collection and it was a great source of inspiration for a young teen guitarist.
Marinero
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A Day in the Life by Wes did it for me too, Marinero! Maybe it was a bit of a corny effort to hyper-commercialize Wes, and my hardcore jazz bros might scoff at the orchestration. But it opened my ears to a whole new world and I remain grateful decades later.
What do you think of this, Jimmy? I think the key is a really nice memorable melody. You need something to hang your hat on, don't ya?
Lennon/McCartney. Jimmy Webb. Brian Wilson. Some really great melodies came from those cats.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
I think doing it on keyboards and guitar are two different things.
On guitar you can focus on emphasizing the melody with inflections you can’t do on a keyboard (like vibrato for instance, and other things that mimic the voice), and relatively simple harmonic accompaniment works well.
On keyboard, you can’t really do that as well. However you have soooooo much more you can do. I wouldn’t go treating Pop songs like they are super hip bebop tunes with a stank face for every chord. I think for pop stuff, harmonizing it a bit more like gospel music works really well. Instead of stank face chords, use pretty chords instead. Big open voicings heavy on the ninth can add that harmonic sophistication without losing the person who knows nothing about music humming along in the audience.
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Bill Frisell sure knows how to embellish a simple melody in a solo context. I once saw an all instrumental band at a corporate event. They played classic rock but one of the guitar players mimicked the vocal line and that was key to making it work.
Johnny A does a great job arranging pop tunes.Last edited by alltunes; 10-15-2022 at 09:47 AM.
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"A Day in the Life by Wes did it for me too, Marinero! Maybe it was a bit of a corny effort to hyper-commercialize Wes, and my hardcore jazz bros might scoff at the orchestration. But it opened my ears to a whole new world and I remain grateful decades later."
Flat
Hi, F,
What some might call "hyper-commercialize" is an artist's attempt to reach a wider audience. "Hardcore jazz bros" can pontificate ad nauseum about this concept as they fail to reach a smaller and smaller audience until they are lost in obscurity. Most great players did it ,at some time, as I mentioned in a previous post. Live Jazz music is dead in most cities across America with the lion share of work going to 3 chord Cowboy/Rock guitarists as Jazzers morph into "Bedroom Artists." There are some who gig on this Forum and I'm certain most, if not all, would agree that there is no substitute for live paid performance. Here's Chicago guitarist Phil Upchurch playing "Misty."
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Barry liked to play Isn’t She Lovely
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You have to do something that holds the audience's interest, or, at least, I assume that's the goal.
You've already given up two powerful holds on the audience -- a singer and the lyric.
So, to make up for that, you have to do something interesting with the tune. And, that brings us to the vast subject of arranging.
A good arrangement can certainly use simple, unembellished harmony. But, then it's going to have to do something else to keep the tune interesting. For a jazz gig, having a solid groove and great solos is traditional and will work. The more creative the arranger, the further out it gets.
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^ I think you explained it well. That's my thought on it.
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I don't know about that particular song, but I've been playing solo instrumental "chord melody" versions of Grateful Dead tunes with great enjoyment- He's Gone, Cassidy, Brokedown Palace, Eyes of the World, Bird Song, etc. There's enough harmonic stuff there to provide interest and the melodies usually fit conveniently. My goal is the Terrapin Station suite all the way through.
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I've been working with Musescore writing big band arrangements for two big bands I play with, and I started off doing all of my originals, then went to little known jazz tunes, then obscure tunes I liked from from shows and movies. Then I went to well known standards that I had interesting arrangements on, and now I'm doing rock tunes that I liked when I was a kid, but the one thing they all have in common is that they have to have a certain architecture that lends itself to improvisation.
I also try to stay away from anything that's been done before, or has nothing to do with jazz.
There were certain rockers who were either jazz musicians at one point, or very jazz influenced.
These include:
Traffic
The Youngbloods
Steely Dan
Nilsson
Arthur Lee and Love
If
Carole King
Paul Simon
The Association
King Crimson
Nick Drake
Judee Sill
An obscure 60s Psych Band
The guys in the big bands are either too young or too old to have heard these songs, so they dig sight reading them, and I've done a lot of crazy things with them, so they're fun to blow off, and sight read the shout choruses I've written for them.
Steely Dan has been done by all the major big bands, but I found some that haven't been done by anyone, and no one has done big band charts on most of the tunes I've chosen from the above artists,
but if you can think of any tunes in this vein, I'd appreciate it if you posted them.
I know tunes like "Moondance" and Sir Duke kind of fit this description, but they've been done to death.
Thanks!
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