Cmaj scale over Dm7-G7-Cmaj7, what are you thinking?

[abracadabra]

(This is kind of long-winded for what is a basic question, but I've been having trouble nailing down in words what I'm trying to get at.)

I've been making some good progress with arpeggios and various approach tones and enclosures etc when improvising over changes, but one very common piece of adviceI read about on this site is something I still don't quite grasp:

People often ask "Should I play modes over a ii-V-I?" and the answer is invariably something like: "Since D Dorian, G Mixo, and C Ionion are all the same notes, just use Cmajor", and also that you can't think fast enough to switch modes every two beats etc.

I understand all that, but what I don't get is how you're spelling out the changes with the Cmajor scale.

I mean, if you are accentuating Dm7 chord tones over Dm7 and G7 chord tones over G7, how exactly are you approaching this in your head? To me, that is just playing arpeggios but with specifically scale tones on upbeats instead of random chromatics.

I think what I just don't get is why would someone specify that they are playing a Cmajor scale over a Dm7-G7-Cmaj7 progression if they are still thinking about the chord tones of the underlying chords in order to help spell out the changes.

I'm sure I am probably making too much of this, as I often do, but it makes me think I am missing something.

When I play over a Dm7-G7-Cmaj7, I will be hitting chord tones on downbeats, mostly, and I can play scale tones on the other beats or chromatics or whatever, but I'm always focussed on the arpeggios, not the scales.

How do you guys 'map out' the changes in your head if you are using one scale to play over a bunch of changes?

[whippersnapper]

Even though it's technically correct to play C major over this II-V-I, thinking of "C major" really doesn't help me at all.

I personally like to think of most importantly the guide tones and connecting them with 'outside' notes (notes not diatonically within) as well as chromatics and a whole bunch of things.

Sometimes I'll just play lines or ideas I've played before and vary them, and it seems I am really thinking very little when I do this.

[Luan]

I try to play the scale but giving priority to the chord tones, and trying to not play in certain ways the avoid notes

[gersdal]

I've been making some good progress with arpeggios and various approach tones and enclosures etc when improvising over changes, but one very common piece of advice I read about on this site is something I still don't quite grasp:

People often ask "Should I play modes over a ii-V-I?" and the answer is invariably something like: "Since D Dorian, G Mixo, and C Ionion are all the same notes, just use Cmajor", and also that you can't think fast enough to switch modes every two beats etc.

From Bert Ligon “Jazz Theory Resources”, Houston Publishing, "When is it modal and when is it functional harmony?":

A piece that begins with the progression Dm7 – G7 –C is in the key of no sharps and flats. It cannot be D dorian as C is the tonic indicated by the traditional harmonic progression. It is terribly misleading when the Dm7 is labeled as dorian. D dorian indicates D is the tonic and D would never sound like the tonic in this setting. The proof is in the hearing… The tonic is the primary pitch; there cannot be two primary pitches. Labeling the passage as D dorian, G mixolydian followed by C Ionian produces more confusion. Does anyone hear this passage with three different tonics? C is the tonic, and clearly the passage reflects the major/minor system with the functional ii7 - V7 – I progression. Using the same logic, it would be misleading to suggest that a modal piece in D dorian is really in the key of C, with just the ii7 chord sounding.
However, in contemporary compositions that have mixtures of modal and functional harmony, it is helpful to describe certain chords and sounds by their modal names so that an Fmaj7 (IV) may be described as a Lydian sound to distinguish it from a major scale sound (I).
How is music in ionian mode different from music in a major key, or music in aeolian different from music in a minor key? Music in the major/minor system implies functional harmony based on the tertian triads, and so requires the leading tone added to the minor scale changing it to harmonic minor. While there may be chords in modal music, there is no codified system of chordal progression, no functional harmonic relationship, and no patterns of modulation. Modal music might never modulate, beginning and ending in the same mode.

In essence: A ii-V-I as you describe is in C major, and whatever finger pattern you choose to play the C major scale, it is still C major.

I understand all that, but what I don't get is how you're spelling out the changes with the Cmajor scale.

Good question

I mean, if you are accentuating Dm7 chord tones over Dm7 and G7 chord tones over G7, how exactly are you approaching this in your head? To me, that is just playing arpeggios but with specifically scale tones on upbeats instead of random chromatics.

I think what I just don't get is why would someone specify that they are playing a Cmajor scale over a Dm7-G7-Cmaj7 progression if they are still thinking about the chord tones of the underlying chords in order to help spell out the changes.

I'm sure I am probably making too much of this, as I often do, but it makes me think I am missing something.

When I play over a Dm7-G7-Cmaj7, I will be hitting chord tones on downbeats, mostly, and I can play scale tones on the other beats or chromatics or whatever, but I'm always focussed on the arpeggios, not the scales.

How do you guys 'map out' the changes in your head if you are using one scale to play over a bunch of changes?

This is in my opinion the vertical versus the horizontal approach to improvising you are struggling with. Vertical approach means that the player solos according to the current chord, and the horizontal approach that the player solos according to the current scale. Both has its merits, and both are good. I find that the vertical approach, for obvious reasons, are better at spelling out the chord changes, and the horizontal approach is better for melodic development. I'm not sure I would say I could obtain both by one approach (but better players sure could). My advice:
1)Try the horizontal approach for melodic development, and don't be to concerned about spelling out the chord changes.
2)Try the vertical approach and spell out the chord changes
3)Mix these

My 2c

[Reg]

And the correct answer is....#3, and then some. You should be aware of all aspects as you solo or comp. If that's a problem... Start the process to get it together, or just play and have fun. If you choose to get it together, there's not one answer that covers all situations, so you need to be aware of all the answers. If it was fast and easy, everyone would have it together. I'm a professional musician, composer etc.. I've put in my time and can cover. I gig with great musicians all the time who don't have all the answers... but there still incredible musicians and create incredible music. I guess my point is you don't have to understand everything to be a great player. It does take time, but usually the more you understand the more fun you'll have. There are lots of choices of how to get your musicianship together. Many choose to go through junior colleges and study privately... good bang for the buck... Most teachers are very willing to help if the student is willing to put in the non-glamorous time.
If you have the patience, all the information is out there and can be self taught with an occasional private lesson... very reasonable cost. Back to the question... When you solo or improvise, your trying to play what you hear in your head or some pre-planned scheme or organizational method of expressing yourself through your guitar, privately( for yourself) or at gigs, ( yourself, fellow musicians and audiences etc.) There are many methods of creating solos, arpeggios, scales, modes, rhythms etc... and your solo should have a shape or form. Generally the context, the tune or situation implies a few methods of how your solo should take shape... or as you become more proficient at soloing, you can shape the music through your solo. I personally think vertically and horizontally together... I'm a linear player.... when I play lines I'm always aware of the complete horizontal and vertical structures and when I comp my first choice of notes are always the lead lines I create while comping. I never think one scale over a few changes, even when diatonic. Way too simple, there's more going on and if there isn't, create something, context permitting. Speaking of context... off to duo gig... Good luck Reg

[Jazzyteach65]

[quote=Reg;75893]And the correct answer is....#3, and then some.


Exactly. Really it comes down to your call. With SO many ways to address the changes, horizontally and vertically ect, I think getting a sound in your head is the healthiest thing. Some uyes would play linear, horizontal lines, not even thinking modes. Some would address the harmony.

Think of this: There are INFINITE possibilities, even over a ii-V-I that lasts ONE second. Directional change, wide intervals in the middle of your lines, substitute harmonies, enclosures, upper sturctures, quotes, starting each chord from the same degree, playing off degrees using formulae (1235, 3457 ect) Even some of the more modern techniques, employing major tonalities over the two chord (yes, some players do that, in fact I heard George Coleman play C over c- in Miles Davis' "My Funny V'time" record the other day.) Some players even use melodic minor up a flat sisxth from the ii chord over the two chord.

With all these possibiliies, it's easy to get overwhelmed, but they didn't build Rome in one day! I personally, try to think chord tones and extensions, ornaments, rhyhtms ect, trying not to sound too much like "traditional bop" and try to sound more modern, even using lydian and altered tonalities.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS YOU SHOULD ASK YOURSELF WITH THESE CHORDS IS
1.What context are they in in the tune? Is it the beginning of a solo, where you should be more simple. Is it a transitional part of the tune, say the bridge, where you might want to employ some dramatic devices (wide intervals, or even double time ect)
2. Direction -Difficult, but you should have a direction you wanna start your solo when approaching these changes. Ex: Do you want to start in a high register? Do you want to start acending, with a motif of playing in thirds? I think DIRECTION/MOTIVATION is perhaps one of the greatest lessons I've learned and am still working on now, that I learned from my teacher, and from listening to Jim Hall and Wes.

I don't think any of us approach a ii-V-I thinking the same thing every time, unless it's intentional

[abracadabra]

Ok thanks guys, that's helped a lot. I guess I was forgetting the vertical vs horizontal approach to my playing having been focussed on arpeggios for so long.

I've been playing loads of blues-based stuff (Billie's Bounce, D Nat Blues, Doxy etc) and using arps plus blues scale works really well over that. But been messing around with Autumn Leave recently and although I can spell out the changes nicely I am now conscious that I've been approaching it in a purely vertical way. I'm going to start playing it in a horizontal fashion and then mix it up.

[randalljazz]

to suggest the harmonic movement in a simple ii-V7-I (and most other situations), play (and embellish) the guide tone line. 7th of the chord moving to the 3rd of the following chord.

[derek]

Or you could just forget about all of that, and just focus on the melody. Being aware of the progression is vital, but I think often we wander too far from the melody. People want to hear the tune they know, unless you are playing for a more sophisticated jazz crowd. Good luck with it.

[Jazzyteach65]

Here's a ii-V-I i just came up with by choosing a direction (descending) and hearing ideas that gave me motivation to create the line (the altered dorian, stacked triads on G7 and C lydian


d-
-6-5---
-------8-6-5
----------------7-5
---------------------6
-----------------------
------------------------


G7

-----3-4
---3-----6-------6
-4----------6-7
------------------
--------------------
--------------------

Cmaj7#11

---
--5
----5-4--2
--------5---4----2
---------------5---------3
---------------------------------

[merseybeat]

How cool Jazzteach65

Abracadabra, if its any consolation I struggled with this for almost a year before I sought one to one help! I totally agree with keeping the melody in focus but IMHO it all depends how many bars the band are giving me.

I can try to explain my thought process over an extended Autumn Leaves Solo as follows! (G MAJ)

I usually start with some simple variation of the main melody (Thinking G Maj Scale and the tune itself), I find this sets me up nicely.

Next I would start to play around with that V chord (Thinking Altered ideas, G Augmented arps and the G altered scale or Even an E Major Triad, And some Harmonic Minor ideas for the F#m7b5 - B7b9 - Em).

Then if I had a few more turn arounds kindly given to me I may go a Little crazy by doubling up (Using all of the above) and building the idea as I go.

And finally I might bring it all home with a simple major pentatonic blues scale type thing. (Listen to the Miles Davis - John Coltrane version! Coltrane goes ballistic with his playing and brings it home with a beautifully placed simple Major Blues pentatonic idea that sends shivers up my spine).

So to sum up, I start simple - Go for an outside (Experimental) walk - And to me the most important THING "BRING IT ALL HOME".

Hope this helps,

Eddie

[franamico]

(This is kind of long-winded for what is a basic question, but I've been having trouble nailing down in words what I'm trying to get at.)

I've been making some good progress with arpeggios and various approach tones and enclosures etc when improvising over changes, but one very common piece of adviceI read about on this site is something I still don't quite grasp:

People often ask "Should I play modes over a ii-V-I?" and the answer is invariably something like: "Since D Dorian, G Mixo, and C Ionion are all the same notes, just use Cmajor", and also that you can't think fast enough to switch modes every two beats etc.

I understand all that, but what I don't get is how you're spelling out the changes with the Cmajor scale.

I mean, if you are accentuating Dm7 chord tones over Dm7 and G7 chord tones over G7, how exactly are you approaching this in your head? To me, that is just playing arpeggios but with specifically scale tones on upbeats instead of random chromatics.

I think what I just don't get is why would someone specify that they are playing a Cmajor scale over a Dm7-G7-Cmaj7 progression if they are still thinking about the chord tones of the underlying chords in order to help spell out the changes.

I'm sure I am probably making too much of this, as I often do, but it makes me think I am missing something.

When I play over a Dm7-G7-Cmaj7, I will be hitting chord tones on downbeats, mostly, and I can play scale tones on the other beats or chromatics or whatever, but I'm always focussed on the arpeggios, not the scales.

How do you guys 'map out' the changes in your head if you are using one scale to play over a bunch of changes?

Hey,

Here's a quick answer.
although the "parent" scale is the same in a 2 5 1 progression the "sound quality of each mode is different".

My advice is that you:

• Learn to recognize modes using your ear (do that with any ear training software out there).
• Learn a few 2 5 1 licks and analyze them
• Forget about theory, relax and play using your ear

Get two books:

Joe Pass on Guitar
How to Improvise by Hal Crook

And all your questions will slowly find an answer.

Good luck
F.

[billkath]

Or you could just forget about all of that, and just focus on the melody. Being aware of the progression is vital, but I think often we wander too far from the melody. People want to hear the tune they know, unless you are playing for a more sophisticated jazz crowd. Good luck with it.

Brilliant!! That is so true. Sometimes I wonder who we are playing for-ourselves or the crowd? I believe that there is a place between, say, Hank Marvin and something that bares to resemblance to the melody at all.
An impression of the melody-isn't that it?

[mike gatien]

An analysis of many great melodies will show you that it is mostly about guide tones with occasional accidentals. Therefore, focus on the 3rd, 6th or 7th degrees of the chord (major or minor). It is actually pretty simple conceptually, PLAY "ON" or within THE CHORDS.

In a II - V - I the Ionian scale will do it but, the interval values will change with the chord. All you need then is imagination and a good ear which is the hard part.

There is no single one right way but, this what mostly works.

[Sailor]

Great thread...I am learning a lot from you masters!!!!!!

Sailor

[abracadabra]

focus on the 3rd, 6th or 7th degrees of the chord (major or minor).

Yeah I remember reading an article focusing on the 6th rather than the 7th (or at least in addition to the 7th) on a tonic chord. The author was saying "You've been taught the wrong chord tones!" or something like that. Thanks for reminding me, I'll have to dig it out and read it again.

To Sailor, I think you and I are on the same page when it comes to jazz guitar development. I always check out any thread started by you as I know I'm going to learn something relevent to my own immediate progress - cheers.

[lkmuller]

I just look at what Charlie Parker did over II-V-I progressions and learn those "mini-melodies". Eventually they evolve into something more of my own. I try not to think scales, but melodies instead.

[somegate]

Hey, thanks, you guys! Several thoughtful answers here directly related to a question I had myself. Shoulda read this thread before I posted!

[3shiftgtr]

Lotsa great stuff here! Haven't read anything that isn't super useful.

So here's my log on the fire....

There are a lot of rules in jazz, specific things that the jazz police say make things "jazz"....and they confused me at first. They felt "learned", not 'played", if that makes any sense.

So I "took to the streets" as it were. As I played jazz gigs, I would talk to the guys that learned it from gigs, not a university program. (Nothing wrong with jazz education AT ALL! Wish I could have gone to Berklee...) These guys turned out to be older cats that came up with bebop and jazz as 'their' music.

And one of the things they said over and over is that "you've got 12 notes there....what do you want to hear?"

And answering that was a big thing! So I had to decide what I wanted to hear over a ii-V-I!!! What made my spine tingle?

Well I personally feel that 1/2 step resolution is the strongest. I love that sound! And a great solo to me, is all about tension and release, and using that 1/2 step can really solidify the tension and release implied in the harmony. So melodic motion is the order of the day....moving from a C note to a B note when the Dm7 changes to a G7 (C is the b7 of Dm7, and B is the 3rd of G7) and then back to a C when you resolve to the I chord is as simple as you can get. Using that as a kind of springboard, around that you can:
-imply the melody to 'point' to these tones
-use neighbor tones (a festival of 1/2 steps!)
-use arpeggios melodically
-use superimposed arpeggios melodically
-'stand' on some obvious outside notes for resolution with said 1/2 step
-play the rhythm of the melody and use 'themed intervals' over each chord, such as, say 6ths
-and use the great stuff mentioned by the other posters here!

....All the while just keeping an eye on this super strong 1/2 step that ties it all together. Just a little something to throw in the stew when navigating these lovely 3 chords that pop up time and time again.....

And there are TONS of these floating around....D (tonic of Dm7) to Dd (b5 of G7alt) to C (tonic of Cmaj7) works great too....and don't forget, you can take this waaaaaay out if you want to!

[muchi]

Great stuff 3ShiftGtr! that's well put and immensely useful.

[3shiftgtr]

Great stuff 3ShiftGtr! that's well put and immensely useful.

Thanks muchi....we're all here to share the knowledge and pass it along....that's the jazz tradition.