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You should get that Jimmy Raney book of solos from the Aebersold series! OH baby, you will find some bebop vocabulary to study for ninety years. It's a masterpiece!!
Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65
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04-07-2010 07:39 AM
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There are so many great lines, I don't even know where to start anymore. In fact, I am overhwhelmed with material again.
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I know Pat Metheny in passing, as I know his brother Mike, since they are both from where I am. Mike still lives and performs here. But more importantly, I have been to a number of master classes with Pat. So many want to talk about developing his chops, but what he wants to talk about is how to get the music that is in his head out on the instrument, and the compositional process. Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65
He regularly says he has always struggled with getting what he wants out of the guitar. This, from a guy who is one of the best players, and certainly one of the most creative/prolife composers in jazz ever. If he struggles with his "voice" on the instrument, I fear I have little to hope for in reaching that place.
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I fear I have little to hope for in reaching that place.[/quote]
But Derek, that defeats the purpose of playing. Finding our voice IS the struggle of life, just like in actual life, we try and find meanings in everything, including the meaning of life itself, our identity and why we're here. Just like I mentioned, Blanchard said he realized when he met Wayne Shorter, he realized his entire life would be a process of finding who he is through his horn. That's why we're here, that's why we play.
For all of us, playing is all about trying to express the ideas we hear in our heads.
IMHO
If it wouldn't be a struggle, I wouldn't be in it for life
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04-07-2010, 01:17 PM #30Stringbean Guest
To lick or not to lick?
" Licks are the fast track to playing over changes. Some licks are very simple to learn and work well at fast tempo. A good lick will have a hip sound and a swinging rhythm pattern. And a good lick will fit harmonically over the changes(by simple melodic adjustment). Licks stand the test of time as common currency, past from muso to muso. " Robin Nolan
Licks is listed: number 3 of the 7 great musical marvels.
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I think about it a lot too Derek, but I thought you had said things in a very clear way. It is slow, but you get there, or at least somewhere better, in the end! In the last few months I've learnt (or at least constantly practiced) about 70 or so new licks. Only now am I getting to the stage where I am catching myself using these licks without thinking about it. I thought some of them were just unuseable for me too, but I'm now finding that they are starting to work for me, at least a little! Originally Posted by derek
You're welcome. I spend plenty of time thinking about this stuff and talking to the pros I know for their take. Like everyone else, I am on the path trying to figure this stuff out, and get out on the instrument the stuff I can sing or hear in my head. Slow frickin' process.
Cheers franco, I'm going to check this one out! Originally Posted by franco6719
I understand what you are saying Derek, but I think you're wrong on this! Pat probably measures himself against an ideal of perfection, and justifiably so given his amazing level of attainment. However, I think lesser mortals (such as myself) can still hope to say something personal and meaningful with our music? Originally Posted by derek
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Maybe how to lick is the right question?
Errr... that doesn't sound right.
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Or how to stitch them together. Long licks are a dead give away that you've memorized material. Again with the language metaphor, using the same single words that anyone uses you can be totally unique, but if you memorize entire sentences from Shakespeare, Milton, Shelley etc, you ain't foolin' no one that you made it up yourself on the fly! Originally Posted by rjtorres
Then again, if the references are obscure and they are re arranged cleverly, you can skillfully get away with the "steal"....
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Here is a wondeful insight to "approximating," which IMHO can be applied to learning licks, and then applying them. You're cheating yourself without analyzing the situation, disecting it or better yet, start out easy and build upon that, rather than p[lay others' "hot, hip lick"
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Well, here is my view of the subject.
Personally, I don't have licks that match a certain chord progression that I practiced and memorized, and I don't use certain licks counsciously. I think that it's really more of a vocabulary issue, and the system of the learn and forget, as someone has mentioned here.
I think it's important to gain a wide spectrum jazz vocabulary. To speak the language with your own style, you have to know the words and the grammer rules. I do it mostly by transcribing (trying to keep it one solo a week). After I learn the solo, I try to improvise myself using the same general "feel" and construction of the solo. In that way, I find it comes out in my playing, but in an unconcsious way. I think that unconcsiusness is one of the most important proccesses in jazz learning. You learn how to copy the great, and your brain automaticlly adopts whatever it wants.
I do not believe in the concept that transcribing is a deformation to your creativity, as some say. Sure, it can be taken to the wrong direction, but as you learn how everybody used to pronounce the words and construct the sentences, you take what you like from each one, finally creating your very own way of speaking the language. Everyone needs to imitate to develop.
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Cheers for the link JT. Very interesting, the interviewer is his older brother! Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65
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Subconsciously, I feel that we all have a few licks that we like to dish out all the time. This becomes very apparent when you record yourself playing. I don't think there's any harm in having a few good licks up your sleeve.
Whilst having a large vocabulary of licks is good, I feel that the most important thing is to be able to link the licks together. Knowing 100 different licks is pointless if you can't make them link smoothly into a nice guitar solo.
Conversely, if you use 5 or 6 licks in a solo but really embellish each lick (what I call the repetition principle) and link each idea smoothly, then the result is most likely to be much more engaging to the listener.
My opinion is therefore...learn your licks but learn how to link them too : )
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Great thread with some interesting thoughts...and as usual great advice.
I have spent a few months learning complete jazz blues/rhythm changes solos from Pass, Vignola,Stefani,Wes,Burrell,Elias, Severson,etc....mostly from sheet music. Now after 6 months or so, i find myself mixing and matching different parts of the licks I learned when I solo on these changes...
So the question is...would I not be improvising on these changes by using the "language" of jazz? Do you need to come up with your own unique licks to meet a standard of improvisation? Given there must be thousands of hours of jazz blues songs played within the frame work of a jazz of tension-release, subs, chord tones on strong beats, etc. and only 12 notes in a key, are there any truely unique licks?
Just curious on anyone's thoughts on where the line is between licks and improv...
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This is just my humble opion. If you really think about it, rather than work out your own licks, if you have enough tools and technique, pattern and rhythmic knowledge, you won't really need to work licks out, you'll only need to work changes out. Originally Posted by bass2man
The danger about relying on books is they don't teach you the tools and devices (scales, arpeggiation, intervalic concepts, upper structure, chomatics, enclosing ect) you won't have the best opportunity to best express yourself at any given moment, you'll make the licks express yourself, but that's limiting, as oppossed to learning ideas and concepts.
The best teachers I've had all had one thing in common; they started me from scratch, stripped it down and took me through a step-by-step level-oriented approach, ex: start with basic scales, connect them through the cycle, now the arpeggios, now with chormatics, now retrograde, now connect over ii-V, one bar, now over two bars, now start the line from the third, now from the fifth, now the 7th, now the ninth ect. Now connect ii'V's, in thirds, V-V's in thirds, chromatics ect.
This makes me conscious of all possibilites, and with all these sounds I've formed in my head through all that material, pretty soon I'll start "pre-hearing" ideas in my head becomes the challenge of executing the ideas on my instrument. I can also choose the shape and direction (ascending, descending, in the higher registers or low) from ALL these ideas and concepts I have at my disposal.
Also books limit me from learning how to let my ears develope motifs.
The minute I find myself playing the same lick too often, I stop and ask myself, what is it about that particular harmonic situation that makes me play the same stuff over, now change it or mix it up. You don't want to be predictable, you want to be identifiable through the conbcepts, ideas and voicing that I like to employ.
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As the years go bye...(I gig a lot), I've found that I now have my "licks", that other players as well as audiences recognize. I agree... there's not a lot of new material but certain licks require a skill level or proficiency on your axe to improvise with, as with most aspects of music. To me there's not a lot of difference between hearing five single notes being connected or five phrases or "licks" being connected. There's aspects of balance with both. What I find is that there are inherent harmonic, rhythmic and melodic situation when you play jazz...how you play through or at least recognize and hear those opportunities is a big part of using "licks". The better player you become, the more innate or naturally existing your "lick will sound. These qualities are developed by playing live, improvisational skills are not mechanically memorized licks, but the ability to speak and adapt your licks, along with all of your other skills to become part of your expression of what you hear over musical situations. Mechanical memorization is a starting point and sometimes a great aid in training your ears in hearing what you play. So I guess I'm a fan of "licks" and being aware of jazz "licks" history, if your not aware of the stories is hard to embellish them. Best Reg
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Reg, I have to disagree with you. Licks are not the stories being told, the tunes are. We as musicians are storytellers, who's duty is to interepret each tune, and tell them in our own way. Tunes are stories written by someone else, we just have to tell them using our own vocabulary Originally Posted by Reg
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Hey Jazzyteach65... no problem, I like your metaphor. I sometimes don't hear the difference between connecting notes or phrases (licks), there both part of the many techniques we use to interpret tunes. I wasn't implying licks are the story, just one of the many aspects of telling the story. Thanks for making the point. I do find that when improvising over tunes there are times when playing a so called lick helps open doors and cue's rest of band as to where I might be going.(not to mention the audience) And there are those moments when if I don't use an appoggiatura or already used pattern or collection of notes, what I have to say may not be clear to those listening. I have and still compose a ton of music, many of the melodies I interpret are my own. The lick memorization thing was a side line to maybe help those who have trouble playing what they hear, I've been playing too long to have that problem... not to say what's in my head is not a problem... Best Reg
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I'd like to add...
Making up and writing your own licks is creating a mini composition or is slow motion improvisation... high quality slow motion improvisation I would add.
This creative process is really valuable to ones growth as a musician. imho
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Reg, VERY INTERESTING POINT! Ive never thought of using a line to cue the rest of the group ESPECIALLY the compers as to where I'm going. I guess it's akin to a drummer clicking the side of his snare to indicate a new chorus, or a pianist's comping get louder and more dynamic to indicate the end of something. Originally Posted by Reg
One thing I've been wanting to try is comping single-note lines. I listen to a lot of Curtis Fuller and Lee Morgan, those horn guys use comping horn lines during ones solo. They play ostinato figures usually based off the head, kind of like a melodic vamp. However, us guitarists don't have the dymaics or the same crescendo ability that horn players do to create dramatic, single note comping lines. Maybe it could be done in octaves?
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I write back ground lines for a lot of charts , sometimes just to keep the horns in the tune and sometimes to help the groove. There basically single not comping figures. A game I play at gigs a lot is to play a simple groove line in octaves and make simple note changes and try to keep the rhythm locked, pretty standard for blues and standards with blues feel. I have to head to my gig, but I'll write out a few late tonight or tomorrow, and yes octaves work great for me and they keep the volume down.
Hey Frank I like and agree with your point... didn't or wasn't there a thread with original licks somewhere... busy weekin... three gigs on sunday... Best Reg
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Hi Reg... the thread is here: Originally Posted by Reg
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...cktionary.html
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