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These are two statements that I've heard two different jazz musicians make recently that have been running through my mind lately.
How do these apply to musicians of the past, i.e. Wes, Tal Jimmy Raney, Jim Hall, Barney Kessel, Kenny Burrell, Lenny Breau, Ed Bickert, Martino, etc...?
And how do they apply to musicians of the present- Metheny, Scofield, Grasso, Frisell, etc...?
Are the two statements true? What do they say about jazz? If you hear someone play what sounds like a perfect solo,are they cheating by playing a solo they memorized beforehand? If it's a record, are they going back in the studio and "making little fixes" as Gary Burton accused Metheny of doing on all the records he made when he was in Burton's band?
Are the musicians of today perverting 'real jazz' through technology's advancements in the ability to correct every mistake so easily? Or are there no such things as mistakes in jazz as some people maintain?
I don't usually get involved in these types of questions, but the two statements in the title were made by players of a similar age and background to mine,
, and I'm finding them kind of interesting...
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02-22-2022 01:39 AM
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Those statements aren't really true. I don't think it's accurate to say jazz or solos are all imperfect because although mistakes are involved in jazz, it's still possible to play at a satisfactory or high level where lil flibs aren't taking away from the continuity and overall quality of the playing. And high level players absolutely run through takes with little to no mistakes. I watch the open studio live podcasts weekly and they jam with 2 pianos and I almost never, never hear something that sounds like a clam. The goal is to get to where you're making few mistakes, and the few you do make you're able to hide or recover from. So I would say there are countless solos that aren't perfect, but they are by no means imperfect as they aren't making any clams and it sounds good throughout. And there are some genuinely perfect solos too such as Bill Evans's Autumn Leaves.
Last edited by Jimmy Smith; 02-22-2022 at 03:08 AM.
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Instead of looking for mistakes, it is better to hear the discs and not to be overwhelmed by it.
Jazz music is played by people, not machines.
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I suppose one way to look at it is that perfection implies correctness, that something is right in accordance with a scorecard or template. That there is a right answer. Jazz as improvised music is never Right in that sense, there are always other options to explore, a solo or performance is only the actualization of one out of a near infinite posibilities.
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You don't practice/play to be fulfill anybody else's metric of perfection; that's a music school's construct. You practice so you can, in the moment, create the most accurate and seamless expression of everything you know and have the mastery to realize.
If you play to your limit and you are happy with it, and yourself, it's perfection.
If you feel it misses your mark, you have a reason to keep playing and a reason to set the bar higher.
In a lifestyle of constant improvement and internal mastery, you will never achieve perfection, but those that don't get it, those who hold to absolutes like product perfection, may see perfection.
Jazz is a lifestyle of constant process.
Perfection is something that is not intended, it's a attribute of attitude by the listener.
Oh yeah, if you think playing jazz is about trying for product perfection, you're not in the moment.
My two cents...
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Oliver Nelson's solo on Stolen Moments is as close to perfect as I can think of. I also HIGHLY doubt it was improvised.
If you think guys weren't practicing things for records, or live performances, you're kidding yourself. If anything modern recording practices like punch ins and multiple takes actually allow for music to be more improvised than in the past.
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"Jazz is an imperfect art" - tautology? Any "art" has to be "imperfect" in order to express and convey human nature. What does perfect art even mean? To which degree? If say 100% precise timing or pitch are needed to be perfect then even the machines are faulty to some extent. If composition or melody is considered then jazz is no different than other genres (are these 4 bars of Bach more perfect than these other 4 bars? Is one melody better than the other when they both use/imply the same harmony?)
"No such thing as a perfect jazz solo" - kinda makes sense. Lots of examples of 2 different players soloing one after another. Both producing what could be a prime candidate for a "perfect solo". Should not be possible by the definition of perfection: something that can not be improved upon thus singular and unique.
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I'll keep posting this until you people GET IT:
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maybe there are nothing special about the two statements, indeed they are misleading in term that suggest jazz is unique in that aspect. Which is probably false.
In general there is no such thing that perfect painting, (yes I know, Mona, but that is one against million) or widening the scope, also there is no perfect software, no perfect house, no perfect car no perfect ... you know what :-)
So stating jazz is imperfect, is true, but sadly meaningless, because all art is imperfect, and nothing is perfect.
However...there are many wonderful things what we can *label* as perfect for us, our love, our house and the same way our admired artists solos. Many Wes solos are just perfect in that sense for me. So we are back again: jazz is not different to other things in life regarding perfectness.
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"new" and "exciting" are far more important than "perfection."
Actually, I'd argue that perfection is the antithesis of jazz. It implies there's a "right" way to do it.
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I think Johnny Smith's solo is perfect here. What else do you need.
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I suppose to somebody's definition of perfection those statements might mean something, but they don't mean anything to me. Maybe in context they're more intelligible, but here to me they're not.
Originally Posted by sgcim
If you're asking whether edits and overdubs violate some rule of jazz, I think that's a bit of a gray area. I think dipping the faders on a clam or maybe a very short punch-in or edit is fine, and is very widely done. But to the degree that a jazz recording is supposed to be a representation of a live performance, extensive edits are out of bounds. I'm not aware of Burton _accusing_ Metheny of doing that, but I am aware of Metheny and Burton openly acknowledging they did some punches and overdubs. Do you have a link for this accusation? I'm curious to see if Burton saw this as a negative. There are also jazz recordings that aren't really intended to be representations of a live performance but are intended more to be a blend of composed and improvised music, e.g., PMG, and Weather Report. With that kind of music there's no conflict between use of studio tools and jazz laws, though I suppose those kinds of music do trigger spasms of "but that's not really jazz." Originally Posted by sgcim
Way too broad a generalization, and with no specific information or examples of recordings reflecting this. Maybe there are jazz recordings with no solos played all the way through and nothing but edit after edit, but I doubt it*. I would guess that nearly every jazz recording has some notes or articulations or moments that make the player wince a little, but which you or I don't even notice, and the producer thought was fine. Also, multi-tracking, punching in and out, and copying/pasting audio from one track/take to another has been common practice since the 1960s. So if this is some sort of violation of jazz law, it's not specific to today's jazz musicians. If you don't believe me, go talk to Teo Macero. Originally Posted by sgcim
*Kenny G. says he does this, but I don't really think of what he does as jazz, and I don't think he really does either.
Different strokes for different folks ... Originally Posted by sgcim
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A couple of thoughts:
There are no wrong notes. There are, however, less than optimum resolutions from time to time.
One of Jazz's greatest strengths is its embrace of "imperfection." An "oops" may lead to a new perspective on intervallic interaction. Surely the #4/b5 didn't just jump out of the bushes?
There are cultures in which deliberate imperfections are introduced to otherwise flawless designs to avoid offending the gods.
Fear of failure leads to fear of playing.
I used to play with an excellent Bassist who judged his performance on the basis of how many wrong notes he played. My response was that I just kept track of how many really cool new things I discovered. Perspective.
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perfection...really?
its only a passing moment ..
you suddenly realize the meaning of a concept..an idea..a word..a phrase..a work of art
and its the feeling that you have done so..and then realize that the moment is gone
you can not "produce" perfection .. it can't be edited or replicated..copied or queued in
the price of perfection is being aware when it appears and when it passes..and knowing you have no control to do otherwise..
and feel thankful you were there because that moment can not be repeated..but..can be felt long after
every so often I have to remind myself..perfection is all around us in all forms..works and deeds..when we stop being important..we may see it
Los Angeles..Years back
At a stop light in morning rush hour traffic..In my rear view mirror I see..
in her car..a woman is putting on lipstick and checking her hair..in her rear view mirror
now she is adjusting her rear view mirror and now is looking ahead..and noticed me
looking back at her in my mirror...I gave her the "OK" sign ( ahh babe you look great).. and she smiled..
and then..the light turned green..and the traffic didn't bother me that morning
Yeah it was something that could not be rehearsed..if it was a commercial..the producers would kcuf it up
to me it was a "perfect" moment
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I wanna post before reading other replys here.
There are solos that are perfect. Something special happened for whatever reasons. But it is always rare.
"Standard deviation" works with jazz solos too. Depends on who is listening though.
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'm not aware of Burton _accusing_ Metheny of doing that, but I am aware of Metheny and Burton openly acknowledging they did some punches and overdubs. Do you have a link for this accusation? Originally Posted by John A.
'He says it in his autobiography, "Learning To Listen", right after he tells about why he fired PM from his band, so I think you can assume he was implying that he considered it a negative comment.
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According to John McLaughlin, Teo used to splice in solos by him and Miles from sessions done years apart! Originally Posted by John A.
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Yeah, when you compare the solos by Bill Evans, Freddie Hubbard and Eric Dolphy on that tune to Oliver Nelson's, it sure sounds that way. Originally Posted by vintagelove
I don't know about your last sentence though. Jim Snidero said in an interview that when he listened to the alternate takes of the recordings that the Miles Davis bands with John Coltrane made, he claimed they were basically the same as the ones that were released.
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Interesting. I haven't read that. I've read interviews with Metheny where he talks about doing that out of his own obsessiveness. Originally Posted by sgcim
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Great one liner from many yesteryears ago that stuck with me from a WKCR radio interview with a great jazz saxophonist. (sorry, don't remember who it was)
"Every night I strive to clean up the mess I made on the night before".
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Perfection implies more to me than just getting thru without clams.
I wonder if Bill thought his solo on Autumn Leaves was perfect? Would perfection be 100% satisfaction with what you did?
My other thought when I read this was that if I thought someone played a perfect solo I probably need to up my listening game, since they probably didn't think it was perfect. There's always room for improvement. That's what keeps us coming back.
I read somewhere that the guys who did the great Persian mosaics always left one tile out of place so as not to offend God by trying to achieve perfection. I guess he's known to dislike the competition.
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Kenny G is a very influential artist, he reached his goal, now everyone wants to sound like him, so perfect and smooth.
It sounds like a joke but I don't think I'm so far from the truth.
Kenny G sells more records than anyone.
Unconsciously, it might be the norm now in jazz even if his style is a bit different.
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There are often so-called takes of the same tune on studio recordings of great musicians.
take nr 1, take nr 2 etc.There are mistakes in some versions of these takes - maybe that's it?
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I'm just refuting the quotes in the op. I don't think it's accurate to call all of jazz and solos imperfect. Beyond countless renditions do their job of being enjoyable to listen to, elevating the excitement all the way through, musical, no perceptible or no mistakes period. How do you call that 'imperfect'? Originally Posted by ccroft
I guess I'm more open about the definition of perfection. Maybe technically flawless and also excellent?I wonder if Bill thought his solo on Autumn Leaves was perfect? Would perfection be 100% satisfaction with what you did?Last edited by Jimmy Smith; 02-23-2022 at 04:31 AM.
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