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In what I said there is a third.
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01-04-2022 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Someone who plays the guitar and makes music by moving his fingers.
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Which thread was it? Can you show me?
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Originally Posted by ragman1
As this is a five-note structure, there are several seven note scales that could be constructed (C mixolydian, C mixolydian b2, C mixolydian b2 b6) as well as the modal inversions of these scales starting on F.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Well... Guitarists...
And the man went on with his craps saying it was not quartal.
Everyone agreed him.
Since this thread I stopped talking about harmony.
Because not a lot of people know what is about when they talk about.
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Originally Posted by Lionelsax
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Originally Posted by jsaras
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It's whatever you want.
C F# Bb E sounds more like a dominant and it's quartal, built on minor melodic.Last edited by Lionelsax; 01-04-2022 at 12:22 PM.
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I guess a balk a little at thinking that there are entirely "functional" and "non-functional" tunes that call for different approaches. There are tunes that are obviously full of traditional ii-V-I GASB stuff, and there are tunes that don't have those obvious harmonic moves, but I think you can impose a sense of function and structure over any tune, except maybe ones that are truly free and without structure. In any tune, you can find areas that feel cadence-y, areas that feel like static tonality of one flavor or another, areas that feel like modulations, areas that feel like they're in motion with some sort of underlying scale, etc. Once you've sussed that out, you can use whatever devices you use to get from one part of a tune to another in more obviously traditional tunes. Overall, melody is as much about phrasing, dynamics, articulation, direction, fast vs slow, dense vs sparse, repetition vs variation, motifs, that sort of thing, as it is about strictly outlining harmony. I realize this isn't very specific or helpful, but that's what I do. I look at a tune, I listen to the melody, and I search for things I can hang my ears on and places where I can plug in my usual stuff, and practice over unfamiliar tunes so as to increase the stock of "usual stuff" to apply. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, same as with easier tunes.
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Originally Posted by Lionelsax
So context is important. A 7sus chord in the middle of a Wayne Shorter number is one thing. On page 52 of the Golden Classics Song Book it's another
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Exactly what Ragman says. After all the theory helps us get by while we cannot yet hear what is playing and we can’t yet play what we hear. (And I mean in detail)
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Originally Posted by Victor Saumarez
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Originally Posted by ccroft
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I'd be happier if the OP showed up :-)
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by asdasdw
But the excitement of a project, the tip-tap of the keys as my fingers fly over the keyboard, profundities expounded in deathless hieroglyphics, just overrides every little reluctance.
So...
Take a tune like... Iris by Wayne Shorter, since I know it. Or Blue In Green... In fact any tune with those weird, disconnected chords. (But sounds lovely when played).
Okay:
So how would you approach that? Bearing in mind there's no key signature on it?
First, don't separate the melody from the chords.
If you want the right sounds in your soloing you must take both because the chord symbols may not include all the right extensions/alterations. Some people would query a lot of the chord symbols anyway but we'll take this one as read. Otherwise we'll be here all day.
Don't look for normal functional connections where there aren't any...
Unless it's blatantly obvious, like a ii-V-I or just a ii-V. Apparently this is quite hard for people trained in functional harmony to do. They're going to scratch their heads trying to figure out the connection between Fm11 and EM7#11 if it takes them all day. My advice, don't bother. If it's not obvious, forget it.
So it may mean - and often does - taking one chord at a time.
I know the usual advice is 'Think in lines and/or phrases' but it may not be possible at the beginning. Be prepared for that.
Even so, don't complicate things more than they already are.
Therefore be simple, don't complicate your solo. You can complicate it when you can do it without thinking. In other words, later on down the line.
So...
Fm11. Melody notes G, Bb.
Fm11 is just an extended Fm chord, or Fm7, or Fm9. Therefore think Dorian. Which is what you'd do if it was part of a ii-V-I in Eb, right? So, F Dorian (Eb major scale). Find some notes from that.
Don't listen to those who propagate the 'no scales, no modes' theory. It's rubbish. You need to know that stuff even if you don't use it much. You could just arpeggiate an Fm or something but what then, later, over other chords? Players do not live by arpeggios alone. Or chord tones alone.
The notes of the tune are the 9th (G) and the 11th (Bb) of Fm but treating it as a simple Fm7 is good enough. So: Dorian.
EM7#11. Melody notes G#, F#.
#11 chords always take a Lydian sound. So you're looking at E Lydian, which is the B major scale. (B major contains the exact same notes as E major except for the A# which is the #11 of E major).
So that's simple. Play off the 5th of the #11 chord. EM7#11 = B major. So find notes from there.
GbM7#11. Melody note F natural.
Same again. Play from the 5th of the GbM7 which is Db major. Find notes from there.
Bb7+. Melody notes Bb, Gb, Ab.
+ usually means #5 (b13), which is the Gb here, which is an augmented sound, which is an altered sound. So the simplest thing is to use the Bb alt scale, which is B melodic minor. Find notes from there. Or play the Bb whole-tone scale.
Db7#11. Melody notes Cb (B), Bb, Ab, G, F.
The usual way for a 7#11 chord is to play off the ii, which is Abm, but use the melodic minor. That gives the #11 (G).
BUT -
If you get confused about the melody, shift it down to something recognisable, i.e. C7. So the notes then are Bb, A, G, F, E. You can see they're entirely diatonic to C7 and come from the F maj scale.
So you might want to consider playing Gb major over this Db7#11.
AbM7#5. Melody notes D, G, E.
This usually throws 'em. The usual way is to go for the relative minor, which is Fm, and play the melodic minor. So F mel m (from Ab note) is
Ab Bb C D E F G
If you look at the AbM7#5 it's basically a C major chord with an Ab bass. You can see that the F mel m contains all the right notes.
Cm7. Melody notes Eb, F.
C Dorian (Bb major). No problem there.
Db7#11. Melody notes F, G, Bb.
That's got the #11 note (G) in it so use Ab melodic minor.
Cm7. Melody note D.
That D, the only note in that bar, is the 9th. So use Dorian (Bb maj) but emphasize the 9 sound. If you want to.
Db7#11. Melody notes G, Eb, F.
You're okay with Ab melodic minor there.
Dbm(b6). Melody notes: Ab, Gb, Eb, Db.
Now, mb6 chords are generally regarded as M7 inversions. Imagine a Dbm6 chord at the 8th fret: 9x899x and flatten the 6th: 9x799x. That's an AM7/C#. So basically you're looking at A major... but it might be better to play A Lydian (E major). Or just outline a Dbm and avoid the 6th. You have to find a way.
Db7#11. Melody note Bb.
Well, you'll notice that Bb is not in the chord, It's the 13th. But you're still all right with Ab melodic minor.
So you can see we've got a lot of scales from which to draw notes:
Eb - % - B - Db
B mel - Gb - F mel - %
Bb - % - Ab mel - Bb
Ab mel - E - Ab mel - %
That's not as difficult as it looks. But it needs a melodic touch, which is up to the player.
Other Ways
Of course there are other ways to do this or any other tune. You can use pentatonics, triads, and all sorts. But what you're really doing is limiting your note choices, right? Just using pentatonics or triads can sound bare simply because there are gaps between the runs of notes.
I mean, over the Fm11 we could just play Fm or Gm pentatonic. Over the EM7#11 we could use F#m pentatonic and, over GbM7#11, the Bbm pentatonic.
If you try it, you'll see that it works well over the Fm, sounds very nice, very modern, but after that not so well. So we can definitely use them (if we know the right ones) but not exclusively. That's why I don't give up scales and modes. They're far too important.
Here's a pro version, good player. At the beginning of the solo he's just outlining chords. Then he uses some pentatonics and/or triads. But later he needs something more so he uses scales.
So that's that :-)
Last edited by ragman1; 01-07-2022 at 06:44 AM.
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Thank you for the detailed response, don't really understand why you say that it makes very little difference though! I feel like there is a lot of good information here.
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Originally Posted by asdasdw
Or, in the case of So What, a lot longer!
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Originally Posted by asdasdw
This is how you keep the functionality of the chords. The fact that this song is not based on a single chord to which you relate everything else doesn’t make it ‘not functional’. Adam Neely has a great piece on The Girl from Ipanema, which concludes that the song actually doesn’t have a base chord, yet its base sound is very clear.
Just a minor note on a major scale: the E Lydian scale is exactly the same as the B Dorian. Probably a typo
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Originally Posted by Eck
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by Eck
B C# D# E F# G# A# B
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Melodic/US triads for Iris (slash chords). The triads are informed by the melody
I'd use these in combination with some of the base chord tones.
The important thing is the triads in red are the notes you want to lean on.. which is kind of backwards to what you might assume. In this case we might think
Eb lydian, G# Aeolian, Bb Aeolian etc
Rather than what you might normally do, which is to build the scale off the root of the chord.
All of Me - A7 on measure #28 (9th?)
Today, 10:24 AM in Theory