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Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
I wanted to write about a study program at jazz academies but you were faster.
After all, music schools are there to give a musician a chance for development.
They have their own teaching plans and give directions.
Best
Kris
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11-29-2021 03:09 AM
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Yes it is that a music academy. It's just the beginning or the end.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I am an" Advanced in Age beginner" does that count. LOLLast edited by Ralphy; 11-29-2021 at 08:05 AM.
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Originally Posted by Ralphy
It counts twice.
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I know a graduate of a highly respected jazz program in her country (I'm not gonna name the school). She was a piano major (sort of singer songwriter type). She said to me that she had no jazz improvisation ability because her one on one instructor kept focusing on higher musical artistry of improvisation while she didn't have the basics down. You can't do that and expect a different result.
If it takes a student two minutes to chase down a chord tone, you can't focus on teaching them how to sound lyrical when they improvise. But you can help them internalize the mechanics and building blocks in their instruments. What they do with that is up to them.
If the student has already mastered their instrument but sound mechanical and aimless. Then the instructor would help them work on that.
If the student is already an accomplished improvisor, then they probably got full scholarship and the school will take full credit for something they had nothing to do with (that's the payment). In that case student was probably enrolled because they wanted to study with a particular faculty member and find gigging opportunities in the city.
Four years is a very short time. It's not a garbage in, diamond out system.
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
Like it or not, music is taught formally all over the world. This is a pedagogical thread, per Kris’ confirmation.
For that matter, this is a pedagogical website. Ever think about that?Last edited by Donplaysguitar; 11-29-2021 at 10:35 AM.
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Originally Posted by kris
Not my purpose to say whether it’s good or bad, just to say what it is.
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
It’s not about gypsy jazz? Then you list one and only one example player and he’s a gypsy jazzer. Nice job.
And who’s hiring recent college grads to play jazz? Do you lead the Basie Orchestra or something? If you did, you could find some decent players in the One O’clock Lab Band, trust me. Seriously, you make no sense.
I don’t care what rubs you the wrong way
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Gentlemen, take it easy.
Each of you is right.
I like what Lobomov wrote - there is a lot of truth to it.
I also like what Donplaysguitar noted.
Gypsy jazz, whose father is Django R., was simply a genius.
Django didn't need a school / genius / but others probably need a little understanding of what he was playing.
His work is studied and analyzed at universities.
Birelli - takes everything from Django - brilliant too.
It's good that there are music schools - not all who attend there, however, always become professional musicians.
They are cool music fans ... I think so.Make it all that simple.
Jazzingly Yours
Kris
ps.
I like U2.
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
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Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
I have stated this myself more than once.
Don't worry.
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The usual false dichotomies being played out... but it's actually pretty simple.
Everyone who can play jazz learns through very close, intimate connection to the music, usually by learning it by ear, and by. playing it with others as much as possible in some sort of scene or community. Some of them also know theory. (Most these days.) The problem only comes when people who don't realise this think the theory teaches the music. I feel this is especially a problem for those with some sort of STEM background.
This is generally a conceptual problem for people who don't have contact with good professional jazz players and similarly motivated people to play with. These are things that Berklee, for example, continues to provide, and it does seem to have a very good track record of adding value to players, not merely acting as a gateway for the best.
This is why good players who know zero theory no longer surprise me, because regardless of whether you know the names of things you always learn the same way; listening, playing and being in touch with a community of players who play this stuff a LOT. This is as true for Kurt Rosenwinkel or Pat Metheny as it is of Birelli or Django - they all learned to play outside of music college, notwithstanding that Pat and Kurt know the names of all the modes etc. This shit simply doesn't matter as much as people think, although it is convenient to have names/labels for things.
If you've been doing the theory route for a while and you aren't happy with your playing, for instance, this is the one piece of advice you could benefit from. For some it may be easier than others, but time spent listening to and working out music by ear is always money in the bank, even if it's hard to find other players in your area.
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Does it mean that the best solution is playing up to four walls ...?
Jazz is people, contacts, recordings, festivals etc.
Unless it isn't there anymore.
Pat and Kurt - they used to go to Berklee.
Scof also-3 years as I remeber.
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So, non-music majors think that "music school = theory"? That's kind of pathetic really. It's certainly utterly and completely incorrect, and that is a fact, not an opinion.
Out of one side of the mouth we hear "music school won't turn a garage band kid into George Benson in 4 years, so it's not worth it".
Out of the other side of the mouth we hear "well that guy could play before he got there, so it's not worth it".
The only thing that we can take away from such a point of view is that music school is not worth a person's time - even though they intend to spend their life as a musician (and music teacher, if we're to be honest). So sayeth the folks who decided NOT to be musicians, or music majors.
The problem of course is lack of expertise. To become an expert at something, one has to do it. One does not become an expert at something by NOT doing it.
Next up, let's hear what people who never went to fill-in-the-blank school think about fill-in-the-blank school. On second thought, let's not.
So, how 'bout them L5s eh? They sure are overpriced! It's not fair that Gibson charges so much because that means I can't have one! Poor me.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Jazz, on the other hand, is about doing something new/novel/fresh/stimulating/shocking at will - ad hoc, ad lib - that still relates to the structures of music as it has been heard and yet takes those structure into fresh territory. There is no need to explain it. It Just Is. The intent is to surprise and and delight, or at least amuse - I mean there is so much cooly organized and well-composed music already that the most indefatigable listener can never hear it all - jazz has got to be hot stuff to be worthy of the listener's time!
No pressure. Perhaps one has to be a little off to even attempt it. That would explain a lot.
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As far as I know, all my friends who attended Berklee really appreciate the years spent there.
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Nowadays it is easier to get to know jazz for those who are interested in-just search on the Internet.
It used to be more complicated.
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Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
I don't think having a degree in music means one is a "expert" in music nor not having a music degree means one is not. There is a lot more to it than that.Last edited by Tal_175; 11-29-2021 at 03:01 PM.
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There's a lot of available info, that's for sure. But how does one seperate the wheat from the chaff?
The best authors' books and other materials are still better, IMO.
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Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
That's why I have a whole jazz books wardrobe.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
Like lobomov you are confusing my comments and reading things in that I didn't say, but it's not worth explaining it to you Tal. You wouldn't listen to me or try to really understand my simple comments in good faith - because you know I'm not a socialist.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
To be an expert, you first need to be passionate.
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Just to clarify, when I referred to expertise I was referring to expertise about music school, not music itself. I was referring to people adjudging music school from afar - because they either majored in something else or nothing at all.
It would be like a music major opining what it's like to go to engineering or business school. (I've heard a few do that BTW, and it's likewise pathetic).
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Originally Posted by kris
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In fact, music schools, books, videos, jazz workshops are there to develop in playing.
I used to run jazz workshops.There were really big differences in the levels of playing music.
The most numerous group were people who never played jazz music.They would love to play jazz.
The second group - people who knew maybe 2-3 standards ... but did not know the means of improvisation.
There was also one person who played very well.
Interestingly, almost all participants thought that during the two weeks of jazz workshops they would be playing jazz.
Interesting experience.
Really.
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