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I’m not going to debate you Lawson because there is a lot of truth in your post, there really is something called talent. Talent is observable in every major field.
And there are the years that one studies, as you say. Many of us can say the same. It’s easy to conclude that we just don’t “have it”.
BUT - don’t be too hard on yourself. One may never really know what they can do with music until they go all in. What if you could commit yourself to music 6-12 hours per day with a complete support system? ( both financial and family). 100% focus and commitment. You could start with both simple form (like the blues) and simple expression. (Simple motif based improv and simple line building, over and over and over and over). Then keep going, and keep building brick by brick.
You might surprise yourself. Just think of all the greats who had to do the same/similar. Bird, Trane, Rollins and his Bridge are but a few of the countless examples. This comes up in jazz interviews/biographies over and over.
Improvisation can be difficult to put in a “part-time box” like exercise or something. An hour a day of exercise is maintenance oriented, while Jazz Improvisation skill is expected to ascend like an F-16 until one reaches the sky. That’s asking a lot of a person and doesn’t lend itself to hobbyist levels of commitment, unfortunately.
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11-27-2021 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Peterson
Do you already play something, not necessarily jazz ? It can be blues, rock, pop songs.
Everyone begins with something. Talk a little bit about you.
If you don't, they will add other philosophical concepts.
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Originally Posted by Lionelsax
If not:
I played guitar in my teens and young 20’s and picked up it up again a couple of years ago after a 15 year hiatus. All things considered, I think my jazz guitar skill level is intermediate. Some might not agree. I’ve posted a few videos in the JGBE Jam threads if you want to judge for yourself.
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Originally Posted by Peterson
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Originally Posted by teribyrdie
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Just to stick with the talking analogy for a minute: as said before you can know all the words and grammar, but without some original ideas and some passion you're going to be a very boring speaker. The only listeners that'll be interested are ones that haven't come across the ideas before. Like... uneducated.
To the OP: you can learn all that stuff and how to put it in the right place, but it won't make you 'the ultimate improviser'. It'll make you a good student though. Real Music, like real Chess, is a lot more than that.
Improvisation: I like what Peter Bernstein said in an interview. He likes to think of a slightly different definition of improvising. More of a MacGyver thing. Let's say you're locked out of your house. You work with what you have at hand to find a way in. "Let's see, what do we have here. Ahhh there's a piece of wire. Maybe if I bend it to the right shape I can weasel it in there and release the latch. In jazz you look at the melody, the chords and some other stuff you've learned to see if you can figure a way through using what's at hand." (total paraphrase from a year old memory)
It's just a more light hearted way of thinking about it.
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If you listen a lot to even the greatest players, you will hear some things you've heard before. Somebody posted a memory some time ago about Art Tatum playing the exact same solo twice.
I think a lot of players (maybe all of them?) put well-practiced scraps (pieces? phrases? what do I call them?) together to make a solo. But, I'm confident that everybody tries to do something new just about every time.
Of course, in a jazz band, the goal isn't to play a solo as if the rest of the band was a recording. You're trying, I should think, to make something great together.
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While there are limits to what music may emerge on a given day based on our
background, knowledge and skill, it is a different event when we play with others
where the differential calls on us to reach beyond our present limitations if we are
willing to go there.
This was a meaningful essay when I read it too many years ago.
Jazz Guitar Online Feature: Sonny Sharrock: On Improvisation
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The most important thing:
Ears and ear training.
If you can hear better, you will progress faster.
Feel and time- you can handle it with good hearing.
Listen to as much music as possible - any kind of good music.
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All of it, and none of it.
We're all just recombining the same 12 notes that everyone else has. Improvisation isn't magic, and it doesn't come from space...its just thinking and reacting in real time. You'll play some stuff you've played before...you'll play some stuff you haven't. But every note you play has been played before...but if you're improvising, you can also take comfort in the fact that nobody's played them that exact way before...not even yourself. Those notes, those phrases...its everything and nothing.
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Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
Thanks
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
After all, the most beautiful solos of jazz musicians are works of art.
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Originally Posted by kris
Listen to the alternate takes on classic jazz albums for proof.
Relax and be in the moment...and if a lick comes out in the moment that you've played 100 times before, don't sweat it. Did it sound good? Then it was good.
You can paint a beautiful picture without inventing new brushes and colors. Its how you use them.
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Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
Thanks for the advice and interest. But there is no way I can carve out such a chunk of time for music, except maybe after I retire in 5 or 6 more years, if I still have the itch to do this.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
SRV didn't play any notes no one had ever played before. But listen to "Lenny" or "Riviera Paradise", and it's patently obvious no one had played notes LIKE THAT before.
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
I can suggest something for You.
You can make progress with a small amount of time.
The first condition is systematic work.
1 Guitar warm-up - several minutes...every day if it possible./play some scale,arpeggios etc/.
2 Play Pat Martino / Linear Expression lines every day - the basic ones. First slow then faster.One line -one day.
Practise it with the tunes-more difficult...but you can do it.Slowlly.
3 Focus on one song, not like Virtual Jam / sorry Jeff / - lots of songs but not much time.
4 Make one tune so that you are satisfied. Take your time with the tunes.Record your work .
Listen to jazz like you do before.
You will see how you develop - it will be the most beautiful for you.
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Originally Posted by kris
Thanks for concrete suggestions!
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I guess the only thing I will add is: that I work at breaking my habits. For example: if there is ii-V, and I start in a particular place, I am highly likely to play a certain group of ideas over the V. I get very bored and force myself to stretch (musically and often physically), for new ideas. (An idea for me is often like a coil that I can mutate in different ways). After I have pushed myself to move into different ideas, they then become typical, and I get bored and start pushing again.
I think the most freedom comes, when I have the song’s melody playing in my head, and I am creating counter melodies.
If I play a tune I have never heard, then I have to really work, and I typically feel confused. When that happens I am stuck with only my bag and although my bag is not small, things become a bit redundant, and it is difficult to get an arch. (However I would not consider myself to be much of a jazz guitarist).
(Licks are cool but only if I have turned them into little musical universes that are twisting and changing all the time).
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Originally Posted by Peterson
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by teribyrdie
When I improvise (and I am by no means good at it yet) I do find myself falling back on familiar phrases. Especially in the adrenaline of the moment in front of everyone. My brain defaults to 'safe' spaces 'cause I am petrified that everyone will hear and remember clams from when I tried something 'different' today. I'm trying hard to fill up that safe space in my brain with more vocabulary I can regurgitate without even thinking about it. But to park it in there I know I need to practice like anything to reinforce the good ones and purge the bad ones out. And that for me at least comes back to fundamentals (scale and arpeggios) before long. I guess what separates beginner and intermediate skill levels from advanced is the volume of this vocabulary and how complex those 'safe space' phrases become in your mind.
When I improvise, the last thing I find myself thinking about is the mechanics of a chord or scale, but I am playing what I am hearing in my head and if it sounds right, I try to get my fingers to replicate it. When things sound like they are going pear shaped though I do start to revert back to fundamentals and regroup from that point.
M
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
I've been meaning to start a thread asking people here why they play jazz guitar. What is their motivation?
Personally, I'm never satisfied with what I play and at times wonder why I attempt to play jazz. So, I've been questioning why I do this. Do I actually enjoy the process of learning and playing guitar or am I trying to achieve a certain level of fluency to express myself and am frustrated that I haven't reached it? Would I be more happy just listening to others make music?
What I've settled on is that even if I don't reach the mastery I desire, by striving to learn jazz guitar I get a deeper understanding and appreciation of this music and on rare occasion even create something myself that I can enjoy.
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I usually record myself, very long solos, I try not to repeat myself. I listen to the recording. I analyse what's happening. I generally complain about lack of rhythmical variations (maybe because I use backing tracks). There are a lot of phrases, some nice ideas but rhythmically it's annoying.
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Originally Posted by Lionelsax
You can find them, but not too many of them.
Some time ago you found an excellent organ backing as I remember well.
Frank Vignola talks about Birdland’s Guitar Night...
Today, 10:40 AM in The Players