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Many different approaches have been going on for a long time.
Playing off the melody does not yield a singular predictable result.
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11-25-2021 03:10 PM
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You can clearly hear the influence of the melody of Someday My Prince Will Come in Miles Davis's solo (below). It shouldn't surprise anyone because why would Miles Davis go out of his way to pick a standard to record for his precious album only to completely ignore the melody once it's played. Obviously something about the composition inspired him and he recorded the standard with his band to express this inspiration.
Of course the attitude of "Thank God the head is over, now I'm gonna blow over the changes and show off my altered lines" exists. But mostly in jam sessions. I don't think you'll find very many examples of that attitude in the recorded jazz history.
By the way I'm not above that attitude. We work on chord specific material hoping we'll get more conversant with them and transcend practiced patterns and guide tone resolutions etc and be more expressive melodically while negotiating the harmony. Playing off of melody doesn't mean literal embellishments. It can be more impressionistic with occasional direct references. Those are my proudest moments when I improvise.
I've never played high stakes gigs on big stages. My live playing experience is modest. Small restaurants, parks, jam session etc. But I always strive for playing in a way that satisfies my own expectations. That's all I can offer to a listener (if there is any).
Last edited by Tal_175; 11-25-2021 at 04:00 PM.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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11-25-2021, 03:46 PM #54Dutchbopper Guest
Originally Posted by Clint 55
TIA
DB
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I like both approaches and use both.
A couple of observations, though.
I have been scolded, inappropriately I think, for interpreting a melody while playing the head. That person said that respecting the composer required playing the melody strictly as originally written. Of course, there are countless examples of the most highly regarded players interpreting melody. One example: when I heard Robert Glasper at the Blue Note pre Covid, he played something that was only identifiable as Stella for moments here and there -- and then took a long solo on a loop of the last 8 bars. To RG, the tune was raw material for something else and I'm sure it was not disrespect for the composer.
If all you ever did was improvise around the melody, most audiences wouldn't complain. But I think the issue isn't which approach you adopt, it's how well you execute it.
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Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
He already plays the head itself in a wonderfully embellished way. Then his solo takes it further. There is a strong thematic continuity between the head and the solo. That's how I hear it.
Last edited by Tal_175; 11-25-2021 at 04:21 PM.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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I listened to the Joe Pass's solo again and picked one of the (many) moments that shows he is thinking the melody the whole time and checked the notes:
At 1:35 - 1:36, a climactic moment in the tune, Dm to Bm7b5, melody ascends Dm outline hitting the note E on Bm7b5. That's pretty much what Joe Pass plays there (in an embellished way).Last edited by Tal_175; 11-25-2021 at 05:37 PM.
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11-25-2021, 04:19 PM #59Dutchbopper Guest
Originally Posted by Tal_175
You could argue too that not being able to play changes makes somebody want to mess around with the melody only as an escape? I have heard that happen at jams.
DB
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Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
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11-25-2021, 04:43 PM #61Dutchbopper Guest
Originally Posted by Tal_175
DB
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Yea... different gigs, different approaches. I would advise being able to do both... and also be able to do what the other musicians might want to do.
The other side.... man I've played some tunes a thousand times.... I'm sick of the heads, really. hell I'm sick of hearing the same solos... over and over.
I'm generally performing for audiences... and on someone else's gig, or for events through one of the agents I work with.
Most jazz audiences already know the heads, or melodies etc... They want to be entertained, they can listen to a million versions of any tune anytime they want.
In the end... you can only do what you have the skills to do. At least try and make it LIVE and not some pre-arranged memorized embellishments of the melody. We're not playing 50 years ago, those days are long over...
I do get it... sometimes gigs are just background BS... and we're their for visual atmospheric effect... go through diatonic transpositions of melodies and smile...
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Last edited by Clint 55; 11-25-2021 at 08:45 PM.
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@ tal and donovan: I think you 2 made good points about a level of depth that the melody can influence harmonic choices. I had not considered that before. However, my opinion of those tunes is that they hint at the melody in a few key areas, but otherwise the solos seem to be created mostly from the chords to my ear and mind. Now they may have shaped the whole solo to suit the feeling of the melody and tune, but I still feel that there's not really any evidence to show that they weren't mostly playing creatively off the chords. Especially the Joe solo. It's very arp, scale, and pattern based. I don't know how you can prove that's not mostly chord soloing. It sounds like the melody because the chords and melody are linked and playing harmonically representative notes is suggestive of the tune.
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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@ kris and reg. I think if the performer(s) do well at doing the job of 'playing jazz' then listeners are impacted by it. If the groove is there and the melodies are propelled with the groove, I think it's always impactful regardless of the style or service to the melody or the knowledge of the listeners.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
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IMO there is a continuum between playing the melody entirely as written, and playing totally unrelated notes and lines over the same changes. Anywhere on the continuum is valid, and most players will vary along it in either direction on different tunes at different times. I don't think playing random lines over changes is the same thing as playing the tune, they're at opposite ends, but it's up to the musician to decide where (s)he wants to be, and to go.
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But if you're any good you'll naturally follow at least something of the melody as a natural matter of course, even if it's only the first few notes. You can't help it, it's good soloing. But that's quite different from setting out consciously to use the melody. Then you've automatically restricted yourself and that'll show in your playing.
Surely someone understands the difference!
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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My purely theoretical considerations...:
First, it would be necessary to explain what the magic word 'Jazz' means to everyone ...
...and then what does it mean to play jazz?
You can go on and ask about the means of the jazz language, etc.
Jazz improvisation techniques are usually described in any good book.
Improvisation close to the head, quoting the phrases of the head, playing inside and outside ... etc.
Of course, we can talk about these topics for fun.
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^ Head in my hands moment as a keys player from that clip lol.
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Miss Betty Carter would like a word.
(I'm just being a jerk)Last edited by A. Kingstone; 11-26-2021 at 10:48 AM.
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