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I've posted before about a quick test that I've used to gauge the level of a student.
Pick a random fret/finger/string and play Happy Birthday. Can the student do it without mistakes?
Another possible test:
Strum, say, x4545x C#m7b5. Can the student play on it starting on any random finger/string/fret that's a chord tone?
Stated another way, do they have the facility to hear that first chord tone and find more chord tones without having to think?
Seems to me it's a pretty basic skill for a jazz player, same as the Happy Birthday test.
If these are reasonable goals, what are the fastest ways to achieve them?
Thoughts?
An aside. I used to play with a reed player who would be about 80-85 now. He studied in school in the midwest, probably starting in the late 40s.
He could read, but he didn't know a shred of theory. Couldn't tell you the notes in a Cmajor triad.
He said that, in his day, jazz was learned by ear. You heard a chord and played on it. If you needed something hipper to play, you copied a record.
When he soloed on a tune he didn't know, you could hear him start his phrases after the chord changes. That is, he'd have to wait to hear the next chord before he could play on it. That was true even if he had a chart with chord symbols. He'd phrase with that in mind and sound fine, although consistently behind the change. Better in the second chorus. Once he knew the tune, there was no such delay.
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11-18-2021 09:29 PM
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What about playing in Big-Band...?
You don't play by ear there, you have to read music professionally.
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I think the biggest test is often, "what tunes do you know?"
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Humans are very intelligent and adaptable creatures. Music is for the ear so playing by ear makes sense.
OTOH, there is no need to opt out of basic theory. Harmony and theory is one of the easist courses to earn an "A" in. I mean, if you can get through 12th grade math (algebra, trig, geometry, calculus) and a few science courses (chemistry, physics, biology) you can do music theory with one hand tied behind your back. The most challenging part of those theory classes for me (a blues/rock kid) was the ear training, sight singing, and keyboard drills - in other words the performance related stuff.
So it's a bit ironic to me that a person who intends to be a musician or at least intends to spend a lot of time with music, and has a good ear and is somewhat of a "natural", avoids theory/harmony like the plague. I guess it seems too much like "going to school" for some people, and some people are just school averse? Something like that.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
On that end here is what I discovered that works for me. I strum a four note chord and try to sing all the voices. The bass and soprano are the easiest to hear. In fact I find this exercise easy if I just strum two notes (an interval). What makes four note chords harder for me is to hear the inner voices distinctly. So in order to make that easier, I strum a chord and while the chord is ringing I sing a scale without clashing with the chord. I don't know what scale I'm singing, the point is to sing step wise consonant notes and then identify instantly the notes that are chord tones. Next is to strum the chord again but this time only sing the chord tones especially paying attention to the inner voices.
Another thing I do is to play a cadence (V - I), then try to sing the following segments in the implied key:
6 7 1
4 3 2 1
5 4 3 2 1
5 6 7 1
etc.
The idea is to learn to instantly sing any scale degree once you hear the key. I find that learning short scaler melodies that ascend or descend to the tonic is an easier intermediary step. It's easier to remember melodies than notes.Last edited by Tal_175; 11-19-2021 at 11:12 AM.
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Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
Many great players have applied sophisticated theory to their playing without “learning” it didactically. They hear it in their heads and it comes out of their instruments. But most of us pick up very useful stuff from a combination of learning and listening that we probably wouldn’t have discovered on our own.
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I didn't intend to argue that theory isn't helpful.
My post was about ways to evaluate certain skills.
I think the ability to hear a line in your mind and play it in any key, anywhere on the neck, is a basic jazz skill.
The ability to hear a chord and find the notes by ear is another basic skill. I think that theory may be useful in developing this skill, but, in performance, it seems to me to be better if it's automatic. And, the example of my friend was simply to point out that in one time and place it was taught that way.
A third skill that occurs to me is the ability to play anything you know in any key. So, if the student can pick a tune, the teacher can ask him to play it in another key, and not just a fret or two different.
Are there great jazz players who don't have all three of these skills?
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Great jazz players are reall talented.
Mike Stern told me that one bass player plays everything by ear ... he will listen once and remember everything - he doesn't use the notes.His name Richard Bona.
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
I think that a lifetime of playing, listening to, and reading music on your guitar or piano will cut it.
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Knowledge and understanding are good things. The more you know the better. Suggesting otherwise is silly and should be quite obvious to anyone who has ever read a book.
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I think music is not reading books after all.
Anyone can read the book, but not everyone can play.
Music is more of a challenge.
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Originally Posted by Peterson
Musical knowledge which is more usable on the bandstand includes a lot of essential material which is non-linguistic. Or call it sound-based.
I wouldn't disparage the importance of either.
But, I would note that there are great musicians who have none of the usual theoretic knowledge. There are no great musicians who don't have the sound-based knowledge.
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Originally Posted by kris
2: Nonsense, almost anyone can learn to play just as almost anyone can learn to read.
As for tests. I’m not sure what good a yes/no test would do?
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Originally Posted by Peterson
Yes, an illiterate person will not read a book, but may have a musical talent.
I meant it.
Almost anyone can learn-theoretically yes.
The test can motivate you to continue working.
Work on yourself and do an ear training exercise.
Can be played without ear training-everything depends on the level.Last edited by kris; 11-20-2021 at 03:05 AM.
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Aural skills are great. The more the better. If you can do well primarily with aural skills there's nothing wrong with that, but there's no way that's the approach of the utmost importance. Theory never hurt anyone. You can play well by figuring it out as well. How dumb does someone have to be where knowledge is going to make them worse off? The 2 approaches aren't mutually exclusive and can or should be combined. Also, if you theory something out, it doesn't remain theory indefinitely.. You get it in your ear and then it becomes an aural skill so..
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The better someone hears, the better he plays.
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The two approaches can clearly co-exist and some of the best players achieve high levels of each.
It's also possible for one to prevail over the other, to the player's detriment. Don't ask me how I know this.
I haven't seen so many jazz players eschew theory, but I've seen a lot of guitarists and drummers who don't read.
And, I've seen posts that recommend what amounts to years of work on theoretical approaches, without actually working on a tune (not that you couldn't, but it's possible to get distracted or seduced by the theory and spend a lot of your practice time with it).
My favorite example is a post on another forum recommending working through triad pairs and bass notes. All the basic triads (major minor diminished augmented at a minimum) in pairs. And, then trying every resulting pair against every bass note. So, it's Cmajor triad with Db major, Dmaj ... up to Bmaj. Then Cmaj again, but this time with Cmin, Db min, Dmin ... up to Bmin. And twice more for diminished and augmented.
. And, after you've worked through all of them, you do it again with a different bass note. Is that 556 combinations? Then you get to try to apply each one against as many chords as you think might be interesting. And, we're in the thousands. And, of course, you can't just play through them once. You have to get the sounds you want in your ears and then into your playing.
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If ur dumb, ur dumb. Don't blame the knowledge lol.
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Originally Posted by Clint 55
It's like a shortcut.
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