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Nice work, Lawson and rpjazzguitar!
Interesting that you're finding some of the passages difficult at a faster tempo, Lawson. Joe Pass has stated that he always went for comfort and ease in his choices. Although his default fingerings were based around the usual five positions, he had no issue with shifting between them, even mid-phrase, when required. IMO, it's more important to retain the flow of a musical line when devising fingerings rather than staying enslaved (CAGED?) to one position.
For instance, the opening figure sounds stronger and feels more comfortable to me played around the 7th position with a small shift of fingering to the 8th and back again. Most pro jazz guitarists employ these types of quick moves although they are particularly common to 'three-finger' players such as Wes, Benson, Peter Bernstein and Jim Mullen. You might like to check out my transcription, complete with articulations on another thread of a recent Mullen performance to see what I'm talking about:
Saw Jim Mullen today
The other issue that both you and rpjazz mentioned is the triplet figure in bar 8. I've transcribed lots of Joe Pass and he always plays that phrase on a single string - partly to simulate the articulation of a horn player but also because it's just easier to pull off! If you're looking for verification, watch his Jazz Lines DVD.
Anyway, here's a quick video and accompanying notation of the relevant bars:
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07-30-2021 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
I am reminded of trying to get a song called Curumim up to speed and working for quite a long time to try to find a fingering that worked. When I finally saw a master player do it, he was using the most obvious fingering. It was the first one I abandoned as impossible. He had the right-hand chops. I don't.
But, there always seems to be a way.
I had to think about a couple of spots in that 8 bars of Joe Pass. Here's what I came up with. Pmb did a nice video on his fingering. Some similarities in the devices used, but not the same. I like the way he phrased it. I had enough trouble playing it that I hadn't worked out the accenting. Which, of course, is something I have to remind myself never to do. That is, never make the line more important than the time it's played with. But, with practice, it will happen.
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Originally Posted by PMB
Notice that the choice of articulation often encourages you to give the upbeats an accent (if that’s the right word)
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Last edited by PMB; 07-30-2021 at 08:13 AM.
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Rpjazzguitar, I like your solution to setting up bar 4 in the preceding one with a pivot. That's just the kind of mid-stream shift out of position I was alluding to earlier.
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Originally Posted by PMB
I'll be taking some time to digest the ideas here, and so thank you again for this. Very, very helpful.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I'm grateful for the time, thought, and effort you put into this. Thanks!
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Sweep pickers may not have these problems, so this post isn't for them. If I could properly sweep three strings descending in pitch at high tempo, I probably would be gigging right now.
With a less than stellar right hand, usually, the left hand fingering has to be adjusted to accommodate the needs of the pick. It's getting consecutive notes on one string to avoid picking issues in changing strings. Or, it's finding ways to play notes by slides or hammers to give an eighth note during which the pick can be repositioned.
The important point, which I don't see emphasized as often as makes sense to me, is that the fingering/picking that works great at slow tempo may have to be changed in order to play the same passage at high tempo. It's not just bumping up the bpm and practicing the fingering. It's about finding fingering/picking that feel effortless no matter how fast you're playing.
Warren Nunes called this "speed technique". He'd sometimes find very non-obvious left hand movements, all to accommodate his picking style, which was alternate with pulloffs for the most part.
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Originally Posted by PMB
TBH I think the horn players at the point Joe was getting it together were the ones exemplifying the new music; adore Charlie C, Herb and Barney but they sounded more grounded in the swing tradition…
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At :30 Joe starts his solo. Stresses often fall on 1 and 3 to my ear during first A section. He offsets it in the repeat of A. Mixes it up later, mostly not starting his lines right on 1, but often emphasizing 3. Thoughts?
I think that this Jimmy Raney track exemplifies what I think of as forward motion. Both in the guitar and piano.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I recently came across these comments in the "Question & Answer" section of Pat Metheny's website and was surprised to find that he also singled out Bean and Raney for praise in this regard:
The issue of phrasing on the electric guitar is an important one. For me, it's the issue that has kept the guitar as a second class citizen in jazz. It's the thing that, in my opinion, separates the really exceptional players in jazz from the rest. It is very difficult to make the guitar have the kind of vocal and expressive phrasing that almost any average horn player will easily be able to achieve.
For me, the model of how to articulate a line will always be Clifford Brown. I used to sing his solos over and over again, and because my first instrument was trumpet, I kept trying to figure out how to get my pick to do what his tongue was doing. The result was finding a way NOT to pick every note the same way a trumpet player would NEVER tongue every note. This is still the main thing on my mind while I'm trying to hear something to play in my head, this phrasing thing.
In terms of the guitar itself, to me the great guitar phrasing models would be: Wes Montgomery: the absolute, undisputed champion of how the make the guitar speak a line. I don't care what anyone says about the superficial stuff like octaves, playing with his thumb, etc. etc. This, and his melodic depth, were the great contributions Wes made. He was my hero!
Billy Bean and Jimmy Raney - the two guys in the 50's that really figured out how to get inside a modern rhythm section and make it feel as good as any of a hundred horn players of the day could do. They were also (not coincidentally) the two guys who were really dealing with bebop in a non-pattern, truly improvised kind of way on the guitar.
Django Reindhardt - absolutely unique, totally successful, and all his own.
Jim Hall - the father of modern jazz guitar phrasing. Sco, Frisell, Mick Goodrick, John Abercrombie, myself and countless others should probably be sending him regular checks!!!!!!! He made the guitar sing and speak and breathe.
Pat Martino and George Benson - the two guys who somehow make the "pick every note" thing (which I generally can't stand) not only work, but they make a strong case that that's the way it should be done. When I hear either of them, I go home and practice my picking!!!!!!
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
For a true picture of where the guitar sits in the overall tradition, consider how few horn players and pianists in the past have transcribed guitarists or cited them as an influence. That seems to be changing more recently with guys like Rosenwinkel and Bernstein managing to cross the divide. Maybe we're finally starting to catch up and get around this beast of a thing!Last edited by PMB; 07-30-2021 at 11:23 PM.
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Originally Posted by PMB
In contrast the later electric bop players play Parker’s bag much more. All players of any instrument after 1950 are tbf. Jazz goes through a massive evolutionary bottleneck. It’s like the Permian mass extinction, but instead of Lystrasaurus fossils it’s just 7b9 licks.
So while there’s no question in my mind that Christian was pushing towards bop and would have sounded great with Parker et al it was more of a parallel evolution thing, the way it was with Monk.
The thing is seems me sometimes that 1940s small band jazz is just wall to wall electric guitar that sounds a bit like Charlie… this would turn into jump music, early R&B… I honestly think this era of players; Oscar Moore, Tiny Grimes, Mary Osborne, Slim Gaillard as well as swing players like Al Casey who went electric get a bit overlooked because they aren’t really much of an influence on the present generation (beyond ‘period specialists’) but it’s part of the history. Early Barney fits into this continuum…
but the slightly younger jazzy jazz guys (Raney, Farlow etc al) followed the horn players… so we split into jazzers and pop players I guess, the Chuck berry’s and the Wes Montgomery’s who have a common ancestor in Charlie.
For a true picture of where the guitar sits in the overall tradition, consider how few horn players and pianists in the past have transcribed guitarists or cited them as an influence. That seems to be changing more recently with guys like Rosenwinkel and Bernstein managing to cross the divide. Maybe we're finally starting to catch up and get around this beast of a thing!Last edited by Christian Miller; 07-31-2021 at 09:42 AM.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
As influential as Christian (the other one!) has been on the guitar world, Parker was at another seismic level. Like Stravinsky, no matter what instrument you played, there was no way of avoiding his presence on the scene even if that meant taking another path entirely. All forms of economy picking basically come from the night Chuck Wayne and his pianist at the time, George Wallington went from a gig to check out the new sax player in town. Chuck had been playing in CC's style and as he stood before Bird, he thought, 'I have to either give up or change the way I play completely'.
Regarding your list of 'intermediary' guitarists, I believe Oscar Moore, in particular, got lost in the shuffle. Barney Kessel loved Oscar's playing and considered him the 'missing link' in the evolution of jazz guitar. OM's small group self-comping style where single lines and small chord fragments are interwoven has been incredibly influential whether recent players are aware of its genesis or not.
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Originally Posted by PMB
And Charlie Christian is such a great entry point into jazz guitar…
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Originally Posted by PMB
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Originally Posted by PMB
That book eventually became much more about technique and phrasing for me.
Anyway, great thread. Lawson’s are always great.
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So I took seriously the need to re-think my fingerings on those first 8 measures, and that meant back so SLOW. I have it back up to about 160 bpm now and thought I'd post just to keep the discussion alive. Thanks for all the suggestions and ideas. I always appreciate solid advice about how to move forward.
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Here's a recording I hadn't heard before today, from you know who. Just for a little inspiration.
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Originally Posted by PMB
Playing so much of this Joe Pass... my amplifier thinks it has been sold to a real jazz guitarist with all these cool lines coming through it!
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After practicing Joe Pass exercises, try to play your own melody lines.
This is a big challenge because "rythm changes" is mostly fast tempo.
My 1 cent
Kris
palm muting techique
Today, 07:05 AM in Guitar Technique