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  1. #1

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    Hello all,

    I've been working on this fantastic Antonio Pinho Vargas tune for ages and ages now.



    ... at this point I've worked so much on it that I feel I've played myself blind.
    I'm curious if any of the esteemed members on here would care to post some takes on this difficult chart?

    Here are the changes:


    ... and here a link for an iReal-generated midi track inserted into a ""live""-sounding (er..) Logic Pro band, at a more forgiving tempo for nearly 12 minutes,

    jogos 13b9 fix.mp3 - Google Drive

    if anyone is up for the challenge.

    Personally I struggle with making it sound cogent. I can play lines on each chord, but it quite clearly lacks continuity and I fall back on triadic playing as a safe bet, particularly on that G13b9.

    I'd love to hear other people's approaches on this, both as written word and as recordings.
    Any takers?

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Up for a challenge? Improv on Jogos Com Doze Sons by A. P. V.-jogos-com-doze-sons-png
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by vsaumarez; 06-12-2021 at 01:46 PM.

  4. #3

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    Mr Quick,

    Some things to try out:

    Root everything in the key that it resolves. I hear the chart in key center of C, don't let all the altered and diminished dominant colors fool you. That doesn't mean play everything in the key of C major. That does mean to be aware of a the key center so you can play with more cohesion. Big picture playing helps lend some cohesion to making the smaller changes.

    To do this, I might...

    Setup some sort of way to loop a C note drone over the tune. Hear how the harmony travels in and out of the C tonal area, before resolving at the top of the tune.

    Play the melody until you can hum it in the shower. This is a tune, not an exercise.

    Play the root movement against the C drone IN TIME--harmonic rhythm is crucial in setting up the sound of any tune.

    Play the root movement and the thirds. Even with colorful harmony like you have in this chart, being able to play the 3rd of every key is crucial.

    Sing the root movement, in time, and play the thirds on your instrument.

    Play the root movement on your instrument and sing the thirds.

    Give your ears a chance to latch onto the music before you superimpose all those diminished and altered sounds over each chord. Chords are not islands, they are way points on the way to your final destination. Let your ears hear the big picture as you dive deeper into the tune.

    I'm not esteemed round these parts, nor will I ever be. I had the luck of studying with great teachers and like to share the wealth. Maybe I'll give the tune a go this weekend if I can pull myself out of my job funk. James Brown, get up--get on the scene! Like a music machine!

  5. #4

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    Here is my attempt:



    If I sat with the melody of the tune longer, I think I could have come up with something better.

    The tune kinda sounds like something Chick Corea would have penned. I like it, but it's definitely not as straight forward as a jazz standard.

    The more you can relate everything back to a target tonality or sound, the easier it is to link it all together. There are common tones and all. Once again, study that melody for your answers.

  6. #5

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    Even if C might be the tonal area, G is also quite important.

    When I just looked at the chart, I was expressing the C7#9 as altered.

    When you actually LISTEN to the melody--ahem, mr. picking your ear wax!--you clearly hear a G natural up at the top of the chart. That's more of a C13b9 dominant diminished sound.

    Theory talk theory talk... blah, blah, blah.

    Find your melodic anchors in the tune. The G note is unchanged until the very last chord. Listen to what notes the soloists keep constant throughout their improvisation. Listen to how the notes move, the melodic direction. It's not just scale, scale, scale.

    Start with the melody. Bring in 3rds and 7ths of the harmony. Look for what notes you can keep the same. Think melody.

    I might record another, busier, take today... if time permits.

  7. #6

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    Heavy, modern sounding tune. I'm very much in on this. Let me see what I can come up with.

  8. #7

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    Ok, so this is a first take, how I'd play it if the chart was put in front of me and I had no time to prepare. I waffle a bit...I kind of like my 3rd chorus. Here's my observations:

    I get a very "Inner Urge" vibe from this tune. Little in the way of resolution, its more like gradually building tension, with a very upward pull, with a slight release at the end, but not a satisfying resolution. Thats not a bad thing, it just means a lot of usual devices go out the window.

    The chords give a lot of information, which to me suggests, yeah, altered and diminished sounds, but blues sounds too. Which is not to say you can pull out your favorite blues licks, but given how the tune moves in an unpredictable manner, you can play altered and blues lines interchangeably and they don't sound cliche because what's behind you is so interesting.

    I hear two possible places to "open up" a bit, and create some resolution. The E-maj9 can "feel" like a I chord, if you let it, and then the G13 pulling to a Gb maj sound at the end, albe that Gb having the #5.

    I like pickings analysis and comments about the common tones. I wanted to go in cold here, but the kind of stuff he was talking about is the key to building something more coherent.


  9. #8

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    Mr. B, does the actual iReal Chart fit the harmony in the original recording--to your ears?

    That last Gb chord sounded more like a straight augmented rather than the major 7th in the lead sheet.

    Mr. Quick--do you know if the chart is accurate?

    This tune is a nice distraction from my very un-James-Brown-type funk.

    Nice take, Mr. B.

  10. #9

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    You still there, Quick?

  11. #10

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    Sorry mates, completely forgot about this thread, I very much am here..!

    Yes, the chart is accurate. This confirmed through personal correspondance with APV by a dear, dear friend of mine and I believe also a member of this forum.

    Great to hear some approaches here. I am borderline obsessed with this tune, and I have been working on it for at least a full year. I still sound terrible on it, because it feels, as mentioned, a bit circular.

    I can dig up a few licks for all the chords, but it's completely meaningless when it's just shallow regurgitations without any sort of coherent thread.
    Additionally, it's all dominant licks - as in, for dominant chords with a dominant function, which isn't the case with any in the chart...

    Perhaps this is what's most difficult - thinking of how to approach dominant chords as non-leading. Any thoughts and tips on that?

  12. #11

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    Very cool. I need to practice more charts like this. I'll have a go when I have ANY time.

  13. #12

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    The title means ‘Games with twelve sounds’, so maybe you’re supposed to go all chromatic with it?

  14. #13

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    Major Triads/Bass

    Eb/C
    E/G
    F/A
    B/E
    A/G
    Bb/Gb

  15. #14

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    When I listened to the solos on the original track, there was melodic cohesion. No matter the device, there was a sense of melody--however angular it may seem.

    When I studied with Bruce Arnold, he REALLY stressed a concept of tonal area and melodic cohesion. He said that was true even as he was improvising with 12tone concepts... which is WAY beyond my musical conception.

    There's a FEW moments in this current take where I really zoned in on a melody--whether it was inspired by the head of the tune or my own. In those moments, I really played sparsely. That said, I think those moments sounded stronger that my "faster flights" into the void.

    Everyone talks about Giant steps as angular, an exercise, and in multiple key areas. If you listen to Coltrane's solo, it sounds like a melody. Same with Ornette on Lonely Woman (my favorite tune of his) or Eric Dolphy on "Hat and Beard." Melody. I'd go as far as to say that rhythm conveys more information about melody in jazz than the actual notes.

    Wanna listen to how it's done... shesh, don't listen to my take Listen to Peter Bernstein play. Tonight. With Emmet Cohen. Hint, hint, everyone:



    And here's some stuff I threw together based on my blabbering:



    I think I'm just excited because the jam sessions are FINALLY OPENNING UP!!! Got to play last night, outside jam session gig. Got my ass handed to me, but it felt great to be out playing with people again!

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
    When I listened to the solos on the original track, there was melodic cohesion. No matter the device, there was a sense of melody--however angular it may seem.

    When I studied with Bruce Arnold, he REALLY stressed a concept of tonal area and melodic cohesion. He said that was true even as he was improvising with 12tone concepts... which is WAY beyond my musical conception.

    There's a FEW moments in this current take where I really zoned in on a melody--whether it was inspired by the head of the tune or my own. In those moments, I really played sparsely. That said, I think those moments sounded stronger that my "faster flights" into the void.

    Everyone talks about Giant steps as angular, an exercise, and in multiple key areas. If you listen to Coltrane's solo, it sounds like a melody. Same with Ornette on Lonely Woman (my favorite tune of his) or Eric Dolphy on "Hat and Beard." Melody. I'd go as far as to say that rhythm conveys more information about melody in jazz than the actual notes.

    Wanna listen to how it's done... shesh, don't listen to my take Listen to Peter Bernstein play. Tonight. With Emmet Cohen. Hint, hint, everyone:



    And here's some stuff I threw together based on my blabbering:



    I think I'm just excited because the jam sessions are FINALLY OPENNING UP!!! Got to play last night, outside jam session gig. Got my ass handed to me, but it felt great to be out playing with people again!

    Did Bruce Arnold ever talk about avoiding left hand finger stretches when you studied with him? What did he say about them if he did?

  17. #16

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    sgcim, he advised to tape your fingers together...

    I refer to Bruce for my ear training, not necessarily all things guitar.

    He's a very modern player and brilliant at that.

    But I am more of a fan of Peter Bernstein, who has a livestream happening RIGHT NOW!

    Even the more "traditional" players stress melodic cohesion and development. Greg Fishman always talks about melodic development. Graham Dechter got me obsessed with melodic development. Harmony is crucial, but it should never totally hamper your melodic and rhythmic muse. If harmony gets in the way of that... back to the drawing board (telling myself, especially).

    Anyway, Peter Bernstein...

    Livestream

  18. #17

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    Decided to have a go at this! I felt it needed a more 'fusiony' sound so I used my Ibanez Artist solid-body and my Roland Cube 80x on the tweed setting with some gain.

    As far as the improv goes, I sort of aimed at some of the triads implied in the chords (as Christian noted), plus I included some chromatic stuff. Sometimes I just moved a pattern up the neck and didn't worry about the changes too much, just played by ear. The first 3 chords in the progression implied some kind of ascending harmony, so that probably gave me the idea for that. For some reason I found the A7 and the Em chords the two easiest places to come up with longer lines.


  19. #18

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    Why should graham have all the fun?


  20. #19

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    You're doing very well, guys, but not as good as me. Listen and weep


  21. #20

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    Mr. Quick,

    If you sit down and listen to all of our renditions and then go back to the solos on the original cut, I think you'll have months of focused study and ideas at your finger tips.

    There's bop lines, rhythm, melody, melodic development, simplicity, complexity, and bare-bones theory to help you along.

    I really enjoyed trying this tune out to test my ears and musicianship. Very cool to see how we all approached this tune differently, yet there is a nuance of similarity between all of our takes--besides the obvious of just playing over the same tune.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
    sgcim, he advised to tape your fingers together...

    I refer to Bruce for my ear training, not necessarily all things guitar.

    He's a very modern player and brilliant at that.

    But I am more of a fan of Peter Bernstein, who has a livestream happening RIGHT NOW!

    Even the more "traditional" players stress melodic cohesion and development. Greg Fishman always talks about melodic development. Graham Dechter got me obsessed with melodic development. Harmony is crucial, but it should never totally hamper your melodic and rhythmic muse. If harmony gets in the way of that... back to the drawing board (telling myself, especially).

    Anyway, Peter Bernstein...

    Livestream
    Wow, taping your fingers together!
    Did he give a hopefully medical/scientific reason for that?