Thoughts on Improvising Over Jazz Blues, Anyone?

[Lionelsax]

After listening to Grahambop, and also Wes Montgomery, playing fried pies, my ears have opened a little in that I am starting to recognize that bebop way of accenting chord tones on strong beats, and approaching the tones accordingly.

I transcribed a little of Wes' solo in Fried Pies Take 2, and when I looked at the notes used, I could truly see how he throws in notes that aren't in the Major or Minor Blues Scales, which I was trying to rely upon. For instance, I noticed a b6 in one of his lines, which was probably just an approach note to the 5th.

So basically, all notes really are fair play when playing bebop style lines. Or am I wrong? By the way, this is my new favorite song of the moment.

Well, the only thing I can say is that Wes loves playing substitutions.
For example C7 = C#m7 F#7
Maybe you can see that type of substitutions in West Coast Blues.
This is a man who didn't have guitar tricks, he invented everything he played.
Now they are tricks.
I just found a video about it but it's in French.

[grahambop]

After listening to Grahambop, and also Wes Montgomery, playing fried pies, my ears have opened a little in that I am starting to recognize that bebop way of accenting chord tones on strong beats, and approaching the tones accordingly.

I transcribed a little of Wes' solo in Fried Pies Take 2, and when I looked at the notes used, I could truly see how he throws in notes that aren't in the Major or Minor Blues Scales, which I was trying to rely upon. For instance, I noticed a b6 in one of his lines, which was probably just an approach note to the 5th.

So basically, all notes really are fair play when playing bebop style lines. Or am I wrong?

You can play any note over any chord if it is part of a strong melodic phrase, is played with a good rhythmic groove, and it is going somewhere or resolving.

I said I would try and explain how I developed my playing, and I can’t think of a better way to describe it than what Clark Terry said: imitate, assimilate, then innovate.

IMITATE: First thing I did was copy some Wes phrases off a record, probably a blues, since I could understand the basic form. (Before getting into jazz, I spent several years learning classical guitar, then I learned rock and blues guitar). After that I just carried on, learning ideas from records by Charlie Parker, Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass, Dexter Gordon, Chet Baker, etc. I transcribed about 12 solos and this really trained my ear to hear the right notes (and also to hear all the tonal/dynamic/rhythmic nuances in each phrase, since I had to repeat them over and over on my reel-to-reel tape deck in order to notate the phrases). So this is where all my understanding of bebop came from. As to ‘down-home’ blues phrases, I got a lot of that from Hendrix, Albert King, Albert Collins, Freddie and BB King, etc. etc. Same process really.

Also I had no fakebooks (I’d never heard of the Real Book, this was all pre-internet days!), so I even had to figure out the melody and chord changes of standards by ear. Again, picking out each note in each chord by ear was invaluable ear training. Ever since then, I have been able to tell most chords simply by ear. (The only book I got in those days was the Joe Pass chord book, this was so I could learn what the common jazz chord shapes are).

ASSIMILATE: then I just messed about for ages playing around with all the ideas I’d learned, seeing how they fit into major, minor, dominant contexts, in different keys. Before long I could string together some kind of attempt at a solo over several tunes, largely by ear.

INNOVATE: eventually I found I was automatically tweaking and changing the phrases I used. Sometimes I found a Wes or Parker phrase too awkward for me to play, so I just changed it or simplified it somehow. Or I was combining bits of different phrases. And sometimes a new phrase would just seem to come out of nowhere. And this process just carries on, from then until now. Can’t really explain this, it just develops over the years until you have your own ideas. If I think of a tune I know well, I can immediately hear lines in my head which I can play on the guitar.

I didn’t use much theory or scales in all of this, whether more theory would have helped I have no idea. I did know the main scales from my classical guitar training, but I hardly ever thought about scales when playing jazz. Of course later I learned a lot more theory, but often it just told me something I already knew how to play. E.g. playing melodic minor a semitone above the root to get dominant altered scale - I already knew a ton of ideas for this. Playing that scale just makes a scale to me, it doesn’t generate anything as cool as the dom alt. ideas I had already got from the ‘source’ so to speak.

Anyway hope that helps!

[AlsoRan]

Thank you for your synopsis. Invaluable info!

And, I can see what you mean about learning where the which notes to play and when to play them. I am in the very early stages of starting to get that.

But as you said, I am emphasizing getting the right notes on the strong beats. I bob my head every time I hit the beat and then I see if I am on a strong chord tone. It is working.

[AlsoRan]

Yep! Grahambop is correct.

I analyzed a few of Wes's lines. He regularly plays chord tones on strong beats.

I also see examples of changing chords by going from the 3rd of one chord to the 7th of the next chord, and vice versa. This is one of several recommended voice leading tactics.

So now, I am creating or transcribing one line every day. I am writing it out, and I am identifying the intervals, in an attempt to get that bebop sound not only in my head but on paper. Theoretically, I should have 365 Bebop lines by years end. Incorporating them into songs is going to be the difficult part but I will give it a go, using the BIAB backing track to help reinforce rhythms and chords progressions.

[grahambop]

I would only say don’t wait a year and collect 365 lines, better to learn only 3 good phrases and get them onto the guitar and under your fingers (and into your ears) as soon as possible. That’s what I did.

If you stick to jazz blues tunes to begin with, it should be simple to play them over a suitable blues progression.

[grahambop]

Worth noting that Wes Montgomery apparently started out by learning Charlie Christian solos note-for-note, then he got a gig to play just those and nothing else. So he learned much the same way.

[Christian Miller]

Thank you for your synopsis. Invaluable info!

And, I can see what you mean about learning where the which notes to play and when to play them. I am in the very early stages of starting to get that.

But as you said, I am emphasizing getting the right notes on the strong beats. I bob my head every time I hit the beat and then I see if I am on a strong chord tone. It is working.

I did a video on this exact subject a while back, maybe it will also be helpful

[Clint 55]

Playing that scale just makes a scale to me, it doesn’t generate anything as cool as the dom alt. ideas I had already got from the ‘source’ so to speak.

That's because the only usage of a scale isn't playing it straight up and down like an exercise in every circumstance. Unless you specifically want to do a run or longer line idea. You're supposed to make up ideas incorporating sequences of the notes involved in the scale or its tonality. The 'source' is the heritage, but it is also the individual's creativity.

[AlsoRan]

Worth noting that Wes Montgomery apparently started out by learning Charlie Christian solos note-for-note, then he got a gig to play just those and nothing else. So he learned much the same way.

You have the "receipts," as young people these days like to say, as proof of what you say so I am paying heed.

I will go ahead and back off learning a lick a day, and instead go with the more realistic goal of learning much fewer licks, but really know them inside and out, in addition to some of the other work I am doing.

Thanks for the extra advice.

[AlsoRan]

I did a video on this exact subject a while back, maybe it will also be helpful

This is helpful, and reinforces some of my thoughts.

I have tried something similar to this, but had a few problems, probably caused by learning too many notes at once, and the lack of putting in the work.

Maybe I am ready now..? We shall see.

Thanks.

[rpjazzguitar]

I gave this some more thought.

This idea is based on playing one set of changes over a different set of changes. That is, you solo as if the pianist/bassist are playing a certain set of blues changes, but, in reality, they are playing a different set.

So, start with a backing track that's a simple version of a blues and then solo as if they were playing a more complicated version.

This links to some examples of blues changes. Use a simple backing track, then try to play on these. A lot of it may turn out too dissonant, but you'll probably come up with ideas you like.

My first foray was when I realized that it sounded good to play on Bm7 (or maybe it's E7sus) in bar 4 of a Bb blues.

Jazz Blues Chord Progressions - Shapes & Comping Examples

You have to hear the juxtaposition, so it's very important to play against a backing track.

[grahambop]

That's because the only usage of a scale isn't playing it straight up and down like an exercise in every circumstance. Unless you specifically want to do a run or longer line idea. You're supposed to make up ideas incorporating sequences of the notes involved in the scale or its tonality. The 'source' is the heritage, but it is also the individual's creativity.

I understand all that, I just found that no amount of trying to create interesting patterns out of scale notes seemed to get me anywhere near the level of melodic ideas I could create from learning phrases by Charlie Parker et al. Those guys played lines that went up, down, sideways, backwards, passing notes, enclosures, chromatic runs, etc. A lot of it was quite ‘alien’ to the guitar, so I forced myself to find ways to finger it until it became easy for me to play. I would never have thought to do half that stuff by myself with some scales.

Another factor in all this was that I never had much practice time, I had quite a demanding job, and a family to attend to. So it seemed to me the most efficient way to spend my limited time was to go straight to the ‘source’, rather than mess about with scales and so on. Having said that, I did spend some time working on all sorts of arpeggios, I found those to be more useful structures than scales.

But that’s just my approach, I think everyone has to figure out their own way to get there.

[Clint 55]

I agree but I also want to be able to make up my own good lines from scratch off the changes by learning the mechanics of good lines from the players.

[Lionelsax]

I agree but I also want to be able to make up my own good lines from scratch off the changes by learning the mechanics of good lines from the players.

You can learn from standards. I can recommend you Four Brothers from Jimmy Giuffre. There are very good lines.
In fact all be bop standards are very good.
The head is already a good solo.
Even if they are not blues. Every thing can be all about II V I.

[Clint 55]

I'm breaking it down to as simple as rhythm and harmony. Try to do cool stuff rhythmically utilizing the scales and arps and to sequence stuff. If it sounds bad either the rhythm was bad or the note choices were bad. Then there are ways to think how to make more elegant note choices. Use different intervals, try different patterns etc.

[Lionelsax]

Well, some are from the University, others learnt by playing.
Nowadays jazz is institutionalised, there is a kind of norm.
So... Is it live music ? Music of life ? Or simply a thing led by norms ?
If you play the right thing the teacher taught you everyone will applause.
If you play good and you have no diploma or nobody knighted you, you can play bad and being knighted you know. You just have the opportunity to play more in order to be better.
So... Theory, talent, power coming for God.
Who really cares ?

[Clint 55]

Exactly what is so awful about the way that Django learned?

Explain to me how you don't get to be a good player by growing up in an environment, where you learn a massive vocabulary of phrases and licks by playing with one great player after another ... Continuously on a regular basis from a very young age.


Also .. Isn't that how Wes learned the craft and the vast majority of jazz greats?




As Christian already said .. The ones that don't get good by this method are the ones that don't put in the work and hours .. Learning theory will not save any of those either .... My experience is that it will only stunt them a lot more. Instead of learning a good sounding phrases they will flounder aimlessly with either a scale or some chord tones that they have no idea whatsoever how to transform to anything that sounds good as they have no reference to actual music

You are out of control. Theory will stunt them? How are average musicians going to make sense of phrases in a vacuum if they know nothing about the tonality, the chord progression, the framework for changing up the riffs? Everyone isn't born with a genius ear. Any type of study that realistically approaches the goal of being musical is helpful. Theory and musicianship aren't mutually exclusive or detrimental to each other.

[grahambop]

Looking back, I am glad there was no internet and I had no books when I started, so I was forced to use my ears and lift stuff off the records.

If I was starting now, I suspect I would watch a zillion youtubes about scales and theory, and would get nowhere.

Theory is very useful, but I sort of added it in later, after I had already acquired a ton of vocabulary.

[Clint 55]

I guess you guys just aren't creative if you can't take a scale or arp and create your own musical sequenced motifs without transcribing something first. That's ok.

[grahambop]

I think everyone should use whatever method they think will work best for them. The end result is all that matters.

Anyway here’s my not very creative version of Autumn Leaves from 12 years ago.

[Clint 55]

Sure, everyone is free to teach themselves how they please, but saying theory is counter productive because it prevents musicianship or excludes using it creatively is pure idiocy.

Listened to your clip and thought it was nice. I'm not criticizing anyone as a musician, I'm criticizing the argument. I could describe your playing there with only theory and be able to teach it to someone. However, I wouldn't advocate using only theory because theory and musicianship aren't mutually exclusive for fs sake.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Anyhowdy...

Here's another arrow for the quiver: triad pairs. It can give a jazz blues chorus more of a modern tinge.

[Neer]

The blues are ground zero for any jazz musician. There are so many variations of the basic 12 bar blues that it is a lifetime study.

When I was around 20, I was a solid Rock guitar player who developed a growing taste for jazz and fusion and Mike Stern was one of my favorite players. I hadn’t had any formal lessons up to that point but I kept asking Mike for one and finally he said yes. When I got to his apartment, he said let’s play a blues, and right off the bat I was totally out of my league. He was playing Bird changes and I was clueless. He showed me two or three variations of Bird blues and the rest was up to me to learn.

Absolutely listen to the Charlie Parker blues reharms and from there you will begin to hear blues all over the place that you never even realized were blues. Then do the same for Rhythm Changes (I Got Rhythm). That is a lifetime of work right there, just those two forms.

BTW, IMO John Scofield is one of the greatest blues guitarists who ever lived. Listen to his playing with Miles on That’s Right from Decoy. You can hear that it’s blues but Sco puts this sauce on every blues he plays that keeps it interesting and soulful. What I like to say is all the “right wrong notes”. That’s what I live for.

[ragman1]

And here's mine from about 20 minutes ago -)

No rehearsal, take one, hence occasional hesitation. And not bebop. As for theory... depends how you look at it. No real analysis, just helpful subs. Unless subs are theory (which they might be)

[alltunes]

And here's mine from about 20 minutes ago -)

No rehearsal, take one, hence occasional hesitation. And not bebop. As for theory... depends how you look at it. No real analysis, just helpful subs. Unless subs are theory (which they might be)

Suggestion: trying pushing and pulling your single note lines against the tempo once in a while to add some interest.