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In reading some recent threads it occurred to me to wonder about this ...
Can you take any melody you know well and play it accurately starting on a random/string/fret/finger?
Is this a completely commonplace skill that every intermediate or advanced player can do, or is this more of an advanced skill that only a minority of players have?
I'm asking because I'm genuinely curious. It occurs to me that a player who has this skill might choose to approach learning to improvise very differently than a player who doesn't.
Thoughts?
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05-02-2021 07:59 PM
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I think all good guitarists can do this to some degree, and could do it really well if they pursued it as part of their technique skills.
This reminds me of the difference between an approach that maintains position and adapts fingering through changes vs shifting position through changes.
The constant position approach is used as an exercise and when reading music in order to keep one's eye on the paper. The shifting of position is used when planning to coincide the last part of a phrase with the first part of a subsequent phrase, so that the hand is deliberately moved for easiest or most natural fingering, especially in executing a technical segment.
Probably good to learn both approaches and the range in between, weighted to suit the circumstances of how you play, or need to play, or want to play... I think most guitarists do this, particularly when practicing in order to learn multiple ways to do the same thing and to learn which of those ways they may choose when performing with most confidence.
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Within reason...happy birthday? Sure. Autumn Leaves? I think I could.
Donna Lee? Not if my life depended on it.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
My thought was this. If you can't do it for the lines you're trying to play, you aren't likely to be thinking of a melody one note at a time as you solo.
Rather, you're likely to be thinking in phrases or patterns that you know will work, however you've reached that point.
Speaking solely for myself, I never tried to learn to play anything I could sing, but I simply spent enough time on the instrument that it happened. At that point, my idea of soloing became what I've posted about -- trying to scat something in my mind and play that. Works great, at a slow tempo on a sunny day. I've focused on it to the detriment of being able to do it the other way. If it even makes any sense to break it into those two ways.
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I have some proficiency at playing melodies or all the parts in different keys on guitar and piano, it's something I try to work. I don't have full fluency though. Exercises I do are I play every song in the same key in a sitting, or I will try to play 1 song in every key such as Mack the knife. That one's fun, you're supposed to go up a half step after each chorus anyway. I think to have full proficiency in any key at any time is a pretty advanced skill.
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Some things you just have to burn into muscle memory to get them to performance level, bop heads definitely count.
Anyway. I think this is a good warm up exercise for anyone to practice everyday. I got a lot out of practicing bop heads in different positions and keys (out of tempo.)
TBH if you are really pushed for time (as I often am), one of the best things is simply to learn tunes or solo lines by ear.
That will train the same muscles, and has the advantage of your learning new useful stuff. It also trains musical memory or audiation skills, which is an important area to work on. Certainly makes playing by ear a lot easier if you have a strong handle on what you are trying to play. That was always my biggest problem with playing bop heads in different keys, rarely the actual playing.
Another exercise; singing bebop heads acapella....
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Then you really need to learn to sing that part slowly and away from the guitar. The guitar can be a terrible distraction.
My thought was this. If you can't do it for the lines you're trying to play, you aren't likely to be thinking of a melody one note at a time as you solo.
Rather, you're likely to be thinking in phrases or patterns that you know will work, however you've reached that point.
Speaking solely for myself, I never tried to learn to play anything I could sing, but I simply spent enough time on the instrument that it happened. At that point, my idea of soloing became what I've posted about -- trying to scat something in my mind and play that. Works great, at a slow tempo on a sunny day. I've focused on it to the detriment of being able to do it the other way. If it even makes any sense to break it into those two ways.
In terms of my own progress here and coaching players at high tempos I have moved towards working on ‘few pitches, interesting rhythms’ just because I get a bit bored of endless bop eighth note modules.
Aside from feeling relaxed and being able to play simple phrases at fast tempos I also think rhythmic acuity is terribly important here; for example can you reliably sing the ‘ands’ at 200bpm+?
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Donna Lee? Not if my life depended on it.
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Let me make it more specific...
Assuming you know well the melody to, say, All The Things You Are, can you play it starting on a random string/fret/finger, without, say, three mistakes?
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
For me it is all about transposing and orientation in the fretboard in various keys.
I have very much harmony based hearing and orientation... so for me it is important to have melody related to harmony (not chord shapes I mean but harmony in general)
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If the tune jumps around too much then not so well. Not reliable - even 1 mistake can ruin a tune
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Initially I didn't think you meant transposing, or any ole key, but maybe you do ? ...in a way ?
Do you mean those melodies that have been stuck in your head for years ? ..the incidental music for Gilligans Island -lol- ..or the way Ella starts Someone to Watch.... I can't just sit down and play those, I'll fumble finding it.
It seems my musical memory doesn't work very well for specific notes, I tend to hold rhythmic figures. That sucks when when I'm trying to figure out an altered phrase that grabs me.
Someone above mentioned audiation, a new word for me but seems to be referring to that -intuitive- knowledge of what that next interval is, or will sound like. I used to be much better at this when I was working with a band, pulling a tune together. That skill has diminished here in my den.
I'm not one that can pull up to a jam and sit in on any jazz tune. I may find a couple nice chords, but you're getting a pentatonic solo -lol ... unless it's one of the few tunes I know.
Cheers,
Mike
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Originally Posted by mjo
I can do it if I know the melody well enough to sing it. I might sometimes miss a big jump to an odd interval, but for most Great American Songbook tunes, it's not a problem. I never practiced it, it just happened over time. BUT, I won't be able to name the notes or intervals very easily -- sometimes it's easiest to look at what my hand just played. If I want to write down a melody (from thought to paper) I may think about my finger movements on an imaginary fretboard.
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Great Q. IMO this is one of the most practical and overlooked skills. It also gets into a lot of philosophical territory about what it means to 'hear' what you play and be 'intentional.' But setting aside the philosophy for a second, my answers are:
Like anybody else, I can do it with some melodies and not others. Anybody who says they can do it with any, melody, well, I mean it's not hard to just go "well what about this melody" and keep up on "upping" the complexity. So it's all relative to the degree of difficulty.
That being said, like Jeff implied, I'd say I'm comfortable with this on most melodies/heads of vocal tunes (across different genres) but with an entire bebop head, no. With a short bebop phrase, yes.
I'd argue that the way most students seem to learn , this is an underdeveloped skill that hurts many people's ability to improvise with intention and awareness. In my observational experience I think it's much more common to be able to play a bunch of licks or even someone else's full solo, then to have control manipulating and re-fingering a small amount of vocabulary.
Since we're dealing with relatively vague parameters, it'll be tough to have real data on this, but it's good food for thought.
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I can do it, but within reason. If the song is too fast or I'm to tired after a long gig (gigs... remember???)
But I spent the bigger part of my musician's life as a singer, in all these years I used my guitar predominantly for comping. So basically "WIcsIcp!" (What I can sing, I can play)
PS.: Don't want to sound like an idiot but I always thought this is kind of a prerequisite for being able to improvise? How do you otherwise "play what you hear in your head?"
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Originally Posted by DonEsteban
But, I've also wondered if someone who can't play Happy Birthday (or ATTYA) starting on a random note can improvise.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I don't believe this has to do with muscle memory (since I rarely play a melody more than once in this manner), but instead just being able to hear (process) an interval "difference" on the fly and select the correct note. (but again, only for non complex melodies).
Transcriber wanted
Today, 04:35 PM in Improvisation