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iReal assumes that the tune is in Eb.
Every other chart says Bb. I know key signatures are an after thought in some charts, but especially for the actual song and melody--the key of the tune matters.
Hearing the tune in Bb and hearing it in Eb result in hearing two very different songs. It's like saying that Just Friends is in C when it's actually in G.
Anyway, loving what we are all doing with this standard.
Once again, Wes haunts us with his greatness:
(wish that got remastered
)
I've been really digging into Pat Martino's playing on this tune:
(great album)
I can't find it on Youtube, but Barry Galbraith wrote an interesting etude over the changes to In Your Own Sweet Way. On his Jazz Guitar Study Series #5: Guitar Improv. Worth a listen!
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04-09-2021 11:18 AM
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I never even noticed that iReal has it in Eb. In any event, I feel like this is one where you have to make the changes and can't just hover in a key. It resolves (twice) to Bb, but it doesn't spend a lot of time there.
Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
iReal assumes that the tune is in Eb.
Every other chart says Bb. I know key signatures are an after thought in some charts, but especially for the actual song and melody--the key of the tune matters.
Hearing the tune in Bb and hearing it in Eb result in hearing two very different songs. It's like saying that Just Friends is in C when it's actually in G.
Anyway, loving what we are all doing with this standard.
Once again, Wes haunts us with his greatness:
(wish that got remastered)
I've been really digging into Pat Martino's playing on this tune:
(great album)
I can't find it on Youtube, but Barry Galbraith wrote an interesting etude over the changes to In Your Own Sweet Way. On his Jazz Guitar Study Series #5: Guitar Improv. Worth a listen!
John
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Key centers aren't important for hovering over a key, unless it's modal.
Key centers are important for hearing how the harmony resolves. We aren't playing changes, we are playing a tune. A key center establishes a tonal gravity that informs the melody of the tune and the improvised melody on top. The chords work the way they do because of the key signature.
There are certain parts of a chart I can over look. Fudging up the key center ain't one of them.
That is a frustration about iReal and fake book inaccuracies. You didn't write that chart, did you John A? If so, my apologies. If not, I'll just be pissed at whoever wrote that chart and overlooked the second most important part (since the melody isn't ever written in iReal).
All theory talk goes out the window the second you take key center for granted... which might be a good thing. That said, the key center is the glue that holds the tune together. That's the most important piece of theory that I ever learned.
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I often go piano-less. Most of the backing tracks have piano parts that are way too busy/intrusive for me. I find they get in the way of harmonizing myself and/or box me in melodically, and I wind up playing virtually the same thing over and over again. I find them helpful for learning tunes (when I'm really trying to stay very explicitly on the changes), but frustrating as accompaniment for any more "real" playing. Originally Posted by grahambop
John
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I've been messing a bit with just playing key centers on the A...I'm going to post an experiment later today.
I love the melody, but the chords on this one make me feel a bit claustrophobic. This has freed me up a bit to make melody instead of chasing changes like I feel I'm doing in my first take. We'll see.
Probably, the "correct" answer is going to end up being the same it always is...get the tune to where you can nail every change in your sleep...and then stop doing that
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I didn't write that chart. It's just whatever is in the crowd-sourced collection that I downloaded from the iReal forum (or more accurately, in this case copied and pasted from an image of that I found online). So no offence taken, and feel free to be pissed at whomever you like. Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
I'm mostly useless in theory discussions. I mean I do understand a decent amount, and do a degree of analysis to figure tunes out (especially if my ear is not really catching what's going on), but I don't dwell on it. Learn it, play it, move on from the thinking part ASAP. When playing with others, listen to what they're doing as a cue to the harmony, rather than think about the harmony. I take key signatures in fakebook style charts as a starting point, and pay more attention to form, where the cadences are (as indicators of key and modulations), and what the melody sounds like. To your point about playing the tune rather than the changes, yes, of course. But playing the tune (beyond the head) means playing melodic ideas that fit the changes, and comping in a way that conveys them to and complements the rest of the band. So a big part of the job of learning and understanding a tune is internalizing and playing the changes in the abstract, nut just as harmonization of the head.
OK, so onward to what I've heard so far:
Ron: great jams with your bassist buddy. I hear the Masakowski (and Miles) influence there, but with your own sense of phrasing and rhythm.
Jeff: cool approach on all bases. Good melodic ideas, nice Abercrombie tribute tone-wise, and you get around really well with just the thumb.
IcePickinEarDrum: I like what you're doing here. Per our conversation, I get a better sense of connectedness and flow out of this. But it sure would be nice to hear some longer 1/8 note lines (and, god forbid some 1/16 notes).
Edited to add ... Rags: Sorry, didn't mean to leave you out. Another good one. I like the way you throw in outside notes to spice it up.
And interesting, no one has cited a Brubek version. This one is really great IMO. His approach strikes as very different form what any of us (or Miles, or anybody else does). He strikes me as much more in the mode of Art Tatum style theme/variations and reharmonization than blowing over changes.
OK, I'll (try to) shut up now.
JohnLast edited by John A.; 04-09-2021 at 01:49 PM.
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This tune moves around a lot. Pretty much in 2 bar phrases.
Begins with a 3625 in F. (maybe .. that 3 might be a iiim7b5)
Then, a ii V in Bb, except in my chart it lands on Bb7 to Ebmaj7. I don't care for the Ab in the Bb7, so I play it as a major, not dominant. So, am I playing a Bb6 or an Ebmaj9? This question is answered by the bassist.
Then there's another ii V I IV, this time in Gb, followed by a #V7 to V7 to I in Eb.
So, to the extent that I hear resolution, it's to Eb.
But, it doesn't matter to me whether it's Eb or Bb. They differ by one note, A vs Ab, and I can pick the other one if I play the wrong one first.
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Got to do more listening:
John, once you hit your stride, man, that was good. Great lines, excellent tone...you sound "comfortable," but in a good way. I liked the "motific" stuff, a lot.
Rag, A nice easy swinger there. I would challenge you to be more "energetic," but why work against what you do well?
Picking, one of my favorites from you...your ideas seem more put together here, like maybe you're hearing ahead a little further? Also, the best balance in your recording yet.
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Not really but I did find this version on which Desmond plays: Originally Posted by Triple_Jazz
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Interesting that Brubeck does not seem to play that 8-bar intro/interlude that everyone else does. Wonder who did that first?
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Miles did it first. He also changed the last note of the A section from F to E, which was pretty widely adopted. Wes splits it down the middle -- interlude as intro and outro to the tune, but not between choruses; E instead of F in the melody (which he alters in other ways as well) Originally Posted by grahambop
John
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Yes I thought it might be Miles, everyone tended to follow whatever he did to a tune!
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Not at all, though I didn't mean faster, necessarily. But this is definitely crisper in your lines. I like it. Originally Posted by ragman1
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So here's a take where I'm trying my best to just stick to key centers...I don't hate it.
Let me know what you think...
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That was good. I liked how deliberate and lyrical your solo started out, like you were feeling your way into the tune. Also thought I heard some Jerry Garcia in there a couple of times. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Interesting. It came out straighter/less swingtime than your first one. I thought the overall effect was to bring out your inner Jerry and make it seem a little less jazzy and more jam-bandy. Maybe because focusing on (major) key centers keeps you away from altered dominants and the triplet-based figures that would make it more boppish? Anyway, sounds cool, and stay away from the brown acid. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
John
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John, pretty much my thoughts exactly.
I gotta try, at some point, to combine these "two me's" cuz that's the real me...doctor...
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First of all, I like the experiment side to this take! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
It was less swinging, but compensated with nice melodic content and great use of space. I heard a bit of Frisell'ishness. Sorry to always compare to another player...Like John said, I guess the key center thing takes us away from the tension/release of resolving dominant chords. Smart!
Maybe had a bit of that 'guitar player' playing over changes cliché. I dig it though, I'm a guitar player! Like some fusion players when they play standards, it's creative and different but not implying all the changes.
This reminds of when I was younger, I was quite lucky to get a lesson with the great Pat Metheny. He really stressed the importance of being able to imply the harmony in a solo, even without accompaniment.
At the time,I was trying to figure out how to play through changes. It seemed so elusive, the information wasn't that easy to get. Now there's a ton of videos on You Tube that explain very well how to learn this, but in the early 90's much less. Still a lot of scales and modes. I Guess that's why today, there's so many great young players!
Well after that lesson,and the exercices he gave me, I became obsessed with making the changes(all of them!) for many years. I have had to practice to actually let some go by...Find the right balance.
So way too many words to say that I really like what you did on this one!Last edited by Ronstuff; 04-10-2021 at 08:30 AM.
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Yeah, been working on that. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
John
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Very melodious in a kind of "mysterious" way if that makes sense - keeps one's ears cocked! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I don’t disagree with the other assessments. I will say that I think key center focus and the way you approached this is exactly what spawns smooth jazz. It makes complex harmony digestible. Nice to listen to in certain environments but makes one long for the good stuff after a few listens. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont;[URL="tel:1113176"
In case I need the disclaimer *your cut was wonderful and I can’t dream to play so smooth!
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Ronstuff, you certainly seem to know your way around this tune. Nicely played. Regarding whether you should use your Archtop, Semi-Hollowbody or Telecaster for recording: yes.
Jeff, always a great rhythmic feel, with or without effects. The second clip you posted had a lot of "character" and would stand out at a jam.
John A, just a tad too "sparse" sounding for my ears but nice tone, as usual.
I'm personally going to restrict my posting to tunes that either I know (which is a total of one so far: So What) or that I can suss out in 1-2 hours and play something acceptable (to me) over. I'm still working on solos for stuff I composed over 5 years ago! LOL. A bit slow, you could say.
Keep up the good work, people.
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Everybody hanging in there? Was a quiet weekend...
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I was wondering myself. I'm still around and will hopefully post a clip soon. Hope that the others haven't anbandoned ship.... Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I’ve been messing about with it, haven’t got round to recording anything yet.
Interesting looking at the root movement in the A sections, it basically goes round the whole cycle (i.e. the roots move in 5ths, or 4ths depending on which way you look at it). No wonder it has a lot of changes. Good one to practice playing through the cycle though.
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